BF=Bernard Fetter
JH=Julie Henigan

Tape I, Side 1
JH:Well, I'd like to start off with your personal family background.

BF:Okay. Well, let's see; o' course, I was born really in Cleveland, Ohio, but I came here when I was six months old, which is 1923; I really came in early 1924. So--my Dad became employed here in Springfield, 'cause he was--he's really originally from St. Louis- but he was working at the time in Cleveland, and he had been there, oh, about a year, and then he got this job in Springfield. And actually, this is actually the beginning of a small Jewish community, besides the people who had been in business in Springfield. And that sounds kinda strange; but most of the Jewish people who came here originally had a business--or organized a business. Now, when he came here, a man from Jefferson City, Missouri, opened up a factory--and it was a pants manufacturing company. He employed a thousand people eventually. Now, this was the first factory, actually, in Springfield that employed women--as far as salaried--I mean, mostly salaries. Not like two or three women--if you're talkin' about a thousand that's a lotta people--for a small town; at that time the populations was about thirty-five thousand people. Anyway, he came here first, and then my mom and I came here; and I've been here ever since. I left here when I was in the service, and then I went away for about a year or so after I got outta the service, tryin' to find where I wanted to do and what I wanted to do; and so I eventually went back to college. And meanwhile my folks were transferred away--my dad was transferred away. But this is how we really came to Springfield- that was in 1923, really--and I was just an infant. But we've been here ever since, in a sense, expect for the time after the war.

JH:What was your father doing?

BF:Okay, my dad was with a garment manufacturing company here in Springfield: it 'as called Oberman Company: O-b-er-m-a-n.

JH:Oh, the factory?

BF:Yes, uh huh. Okay; now, he was one o' the foremens [sic] there. And you will find--that most of the foremans [sic]--or the supervisors- were of Jewish--religion. Now, this actually was the first, like I say, before we had a lot of so-called employment for a lot of men, maybe, experienced in the garment industry. Because, like I say, most of the Jewish people here had businesses. I can name you all of the businesses. I tried to recall--I put down on a piece o' paper--of the businesses and where they were located in Springfield. So this was the beginning of maybe, I would say, fifteen families--Jewish families--who came to Springfield--over a period of maybe a couple years--who they started hiring--supervisors to train people to work in this factory.

JH:Were they brought in, or did they come in and then get jobs?

BF:Well, no; I think most of them came in through maybe some communications of some kind; 'cause I don't know how my dad even found out about the job here in Springfield, although--like I say, he was originally from St. Louis--he may have known somebody who maybe told him about it--because, like I say, he was in Cleveland at the time. So he came here by himself. But there were other Jewish men who also came here: my uncle--that was to be his brother-in law--but they transferred him to another factory. This factory became one o' the largest in this part o' the country in garment--; but it was strictly work pants: they did a lot of their work for J.C. Penney's--big, so-called, chains; at that time they were pretty small, but that was 1923, '24. And this is actually how a little bit o' that community became involved in Springfield. And they didn't know each other; possibly, maybe, they knew each other through some kind of a--through the type of business they were doing, but they were not personal friends to any of 'em, except, like I say, my uncle and my dad.

JH:Did they start up the same year your father came?

BF:Well, some started up maybe a year or two later.

JH:I mean, the factory.

BF:The Oberman Company? No, they had a factory in Jefferson City. And they decided to come to Springfield.

JH:But they opened the one here that year.

BF:Yes, they had opened that at that time. And they opened, I think, around 1923. It may have been a year earlier, I don't know; but it was approximately that time. It just so happened that some of the supervisors--like my dad was a supervisor and there was another man, his name was Kransberg--these men were Jewish. And you know, the Jewish people who came here from the Old Country--my dad came from Russia--
JH:He settled in St. Louis; but he'd come from--

BF:Yes. Right. What happened--I don't know if you know the background of the Jewish people coming to this--it's just like, if you've seen motion pictures, where usually the head of the household--the man of the family--or maybe he brought his oldest son or somebody with him; they would come and kind of find a spot for them to live and get an idea before; then they would send for the rest o' the family. Now, my dad at that time was only about seven years old--he came over here, I think, about 19-0-4, 1906 or something like that; so he was too young to come with him: they needed someone a little bit older. And actually my grandfather didn't have an older son; he had older daughters: he had five girls and one boy, and that was my dad. So, consequently, they came over after he found a location in St. Louis to live. And everybody helped everybody else; in other words, somebody came over here first, and then, maybe a brother--or maybe a cousin -they would help them--other ones--get over here, you see. And this is how really the Jewish people came to this country--was through a relationship between them and their family over in the Old Country. And, like I say, they came from Russia. And I think there was already one or two uncles of his, which--actually they resided in East St. Louis, over on the Illinois side. But he came over here, I would say, at that time; and his father had been here already a couple years-- they didn't come over immediately: they got here, they had to get situated in a position that they could bring the family over, you see. And everybody did that. In fact, when my grandfather--I'll never forget it--I don't know if you're familiar with St. Louis--downtown St. Louis, which is--I was thinkin' about Delmar and Twelfth Street, downtown, which is--not heavy industry, but near the business district--he opened up what they call a junk shop. And he had little--little things that wouldn't amount to a lot, maybe, but to them were valuable. And so he opened up a little business there, and it was a two-story--and they lived upstairs. So he started bringing his family over. And as he got his immediate family--his daughters--like I say, he had five daughters--and my dad, and his--not only his wife, but also her mother. In fact, her mother lived to be a hundred and two years old. But anyway, they came over. And then, after they came over, then they would try to help other people come ov--they'd say, "Well, where should I go when I get to the United States or get to St. Louis?" "Call Mr. Fitter"--our name was really Fitter--F-i-t-t-e-r. And so they would go, and they would spend maybe a month in his house. They would welcome those people until they could get themselves situated; then they brought some o' their family over. And it multiplied; and that's why you'll find certain areas--so-called--now called the "ghettoes," you know. But that was how they lived in order to--; they helped each other. And that's exactly what happened to most o' them--as far as my dad's side o' the family. My mother's side o' the family was a little different, because my mom was born in Shreveport, Louisiana. And her father was from England. So he had no problem, as far as speaking--communicating--where a lot of them who came from a foreign country didn't know how to speak English. So he had no problem--that was my mother's side.

JH:Was he Jewish, as well?

BF:Oh, yeah: he was Jewish also. And he came from England. And he was a steel structure man; he was from Manchester--Manchester is a big steel country--part o' the steel industry. And he had an older son--brought him with him first. And instead o' coming through New York, they came through Galveston. Now, Galveston was also a big port for people coming from foreign countries. And he came from Galveston, and he resided around Shreveport, Louisiana--down in that area. And he got himself involved in--like the steel structure. He--what he did--was paint the steel. Now, years ago, the paint was not quite like it is today: steel--they had to wait till the building was up; and as they constructed the steel structure, they painted it. Nowadays, you know, it's painted before they even put it up. When they put it up, it doesn't corrode or whatever it's supposed to do--or peel: nowadays it's all different. So, consequently, he would have to climb these buildings. And, in fact, he eventually went to Cleveland, Ohio, and he built the tallest building in Cleveland--he was in charge of the steel structure: sixty-two stories high, which is--that's high--in those days. And that's where they resided, and that's where my mom went with--when my dad- 'cause my dad was looking for work; he went to Cleveland to stay with her mother- and father-in-law, 'cause he traveled a great a deal. And so they stayed there until this time when he came to Springfield. But, getting back to the story again about her family: they moved to St. Louis, eventually, from Shreveport, because there was not as much business as St. Louis would have been. And this would have been about 19--I think that would have been around 1920--21--something in that area. So I think this is prob'ly right after the war, I believe; I'm not positive about that. So, anyway, this is where they lived. And when my mom and dad met, and they got together, he was actually, I think, fourteen years older than my mom. But they got married, and then they went to Cleveland for a while, and then he transferred to Springfield. So that's how we came to Springfield in 1923. O' course, I don't remember anything hardly until I was about four or five years old, and we started going to our synagogue--I guess they told you--which was downtown--the Shaare Zedick; and that's where our congregation really started--as far as I know. I'm sure it started before I was there. I think in your research, I think you'll see it started about 1900, if I'm not--is that right? Or was it before that--or after that?

JH:Well, Temple Israel incorporated in 1893 and Shaare Zedick--I think it was 1918?

BF:It would've been about that time, see. I just remember, 'cause--now, see, it was all downtown--I think they prob'ly told you that; and we 'ere in this building up on the second floor in the Masonic Hall.

JH:That's now what the Vandivort is?

BF:The Vandivort, right; that's where that's at: that building right there. And that's how our community got started. And I went to Sunday school there. And, o' course, at that time, the community was only about seventy-five families, I believe, through the whole town. Now, after that time--they prob'ly told you--there was really--

JH:When you say seventy-five families, you mean Shaare Zedick?

BF:At Shaare Zedick. That was the entire amount, though; you know, that included the--. We had the Orthodox and the Reform. Did they tell you that? [JH: Yeah.] Okay. Then they opened--then they built a temple.

JH:But I got the impression that the Orthodox all worshipped at the Masonic--

BF:At Shaare Zedick.

JH:Yeah, right. [BF: That's right.] And that the Reform had separate services.

BF:But they built one there--the temple. I don't know exactly when that was built.

JH:Well, the synagogue was built in 1930.

BF:Right. Well, 1930; okay. So actually, when--I was seven years old then by that time. They built--and they split off; they became the temple, which is where it's at right now. And then we had our congregation, which was at the Shaare Zedick. Now, we didn't--

JH:Right. Had they ever worshipped together?

BF:Oh, yeah, they'd been together. Yes.
JH:They had! Oh!

BF:But, see--but the only thing--there was problems, because--see, there's a different theory--. It's like every religion--like Catholics or anything else: they have certain phases. But the ones who were not--they were not happy at our synagogue--and maybe we weren't happy, either--you know, the way things were. We wear little skullcaps--you know, they call 'em yarmulkes; okay, now, they didn't do that. So therefore, they started their own community. Now, I'll tell you why that is--in the sense that--the people who owned the businesses were mostly from the Reform--by that, I mean the people who had the temple. And they were the more affluent type people. Now, the people who went to the synagogue were mostly so-called- like my dad--they were workers in the sense--you know, they were not affluent. I'm not sayin' all of 'em, but I would say at least a third of 'em were workers, like my dad: they worked for a salary. But now, the Reform had businesses--like I say, I can name you the ones who were in that particular con--; so they had the money to build a temple. See what I mean? Where the--in the other way- what we had to do was build a synagogue; I mean, we had the synagogue, 'cause we rented a building, and it was much easier for us, and we didn't have to worry about the money quite as bad. But it got to a point where we were duplicating expenses. In other words, when we hired a rabbi on a temporary basis--like for holidays--and then, they had a rabbi, we had two rabbis. Well, why have two rabbis? Why don't we just join together--and make a congregation? But here again, we had to decide--how we were going to pray; if you had to have a skullcap or not--they didn't want to have skullcaps. But we joined the Temple really in desperation because of the expense involved, so we could move outta there and have one building; and that's how we came into the temple. Okay? There were people who didn't like that idea. But we did eventually, which made it the United Hebrew Congregation--that's when the congregation joined together. So there were things that we did that they frowned on--I'm talking about--"they"--I'm talkin' about the Reform; and things that--. So there was a little bad thing there. But yet, we had a rabbi who was very fine--he was from Germany, and his name was Rabbi Jacobs [sic]--you've prob'ly heard o' him; and he understood the problems--and, I guess, maybe all rabbis understand when you have a congregation thinking two different ways--you know what I mean? We had the same [focal] point, but it's just the way you do it, and I think--to me--that's how I understood it. And therefore, it made it a lot easier for us all of when we joined together as one congregation; and that became the United Hebrew Congregation. So that's when they started. Then we built a building, which was the auditorium which we do have now. See, we could pool the money. And also, at that time, as the years begin going by, you'll find some o' the people who were in the Orthodox--like the Lotvens--they had a little shoe store--a shoe repair shop--and they had a nice little business; and then we had the Littmans, who had a grocery store here--and they had a nice little business. And these were the ones from the Orthodox part of the family--part of this group that we're talkin' about: the Jewish congregation.

JH:I thought that from the beginning everyone who went to the place in the Masonic were in Shaare Zedick, rather than Reform.

BF:But some o' the Reforms came to the Shaare Zedick to pray anyway.

JH:Oh; 'cause I thought there were separate services for the Reform.

BF:Well, they had separate services, but we had to hire a rabbi to come for the holidays and so on. So, therefore, sometimes on Friday nights, they would be to our pla--we did not ever go over there to the temple until we joined as the United Congregation. So that was the only thing I can tell you.

JH:So--even though the Reform did have their own services- sometimes they would come over to--

BF:Uh huh; or vice versa. That would 'a happened--I'll tell you when it happens like that: when you have certain--like I say--certain holidays, it's better, you know, if you have one--to make it easier for everybody; you know what I mean?

JH:But are you mainly speaking about holidays then?

BF:Well, yeah, in a way, because even like on Friday night services, quite honestly, I don't think there were that many Reform who really had--they may have had the temple. But I don't know--when did they say the temple was built?

JH:1930.

BF:Okay, 1930; see, now, already I was seven years old--at that time- and I know that when--after we--our congregation was so small we decided to join them only--like Sunday school services: on Sunday school, we'd go over there. My family would drive me over to the temple, and we'd have Sunday school over there; and they had volunteers from the community, and they would teach our Sunday school. And then we found that we were getting a little bit closer, as the young people--they could see that they needed more guidance in the sense of--bein' all together. You know, you have half your community--especially kids--over in one area and half over in the other area; it made it pretty difficult. So, consequently, by joining together--at least for the Sunday school--it made it a lot easier for all of us. Because we had the common bound [sic] of our history, you know. So what can you do? It's just a matter of--

JH:Well, is that from your earliest memory--that everybody went to the same Sunday school?

BF:No, not at the very beginning; we were at Shaare Zedick.

JH:You mean, you had Sunday school at Shaare Zedick for a while?

BF:Oh, yes; we had Sunday school over there, too. But, see, what happened, we ran out of--we had very few teachers; and I don't know who even decided how we would do that--but all I know is that all of a sudden we changed over to the temple. And I think 'cause the building was new at that time--much more convenient for us--

JH:Can you put a date on that?

BF:I can't really do that. Now, somebody should be able to tell you that. Now, most of the--o' course, the teachers who we had have passed on now.

JH:This mentions some very early teachers, but they may have been--

BF:Who are they? Kransberg--there was a Molly Kransberg.

JH:Hattie Cohn? Do you remember that name?

BF:No.

JH:She may have been earl--this is written by Rabbi Jacob, and it seems to really go back. Herman Rosenwasser?

BF:No. None o' those people. Well, see, those are all from the Reform. And that's gonna make a little bit of difference possibly.

JH:Now, you would have never known anything other than Sunday school. Is that something common in the midwest, do you know?

BF:What do you mean?

JH:Instead of having a heder or, you know, a regular Hebrew school.

BF:No, we never had that--except when the boys were getting ready for their bar mitzvah--or confirmation, you might call it.

JH:Well, confirmation's different, isn't it.

BF:Well, it's different, but, I mean, I'm tryin to get something that maybe you would understand about.

JH:You can assume a fair amount o' knowledge.

BF:Okay. So a bar mitzvah, then they would go to the rabbi; he would teach 'em the Hebrew--you know, about what they had to say during their bar mitzvah. And that's how the rab--part of his program was that you would go to his house, maybe. You couldn't go to the--maybe didn't have enough people to--one at a time--maybe two--would [be all we would] have--as far as getting ready for a bar mitzvah.

JH:How long would you do that?

BF:Well, it takes about a year--maybe sometimes two.

JH:Once a week?

BF:Once a week, usually; uh huh. Sometimes after Sunday school. But I would tell you, it took my son about two years; he was a little bit slow. But it took about two years before he could--first you have to say some certain things in Hebrew--which is very difficult for them; and you have to say something out of the Torah--read out of the Torah; and it's usually put down in such a way that you can--it makes it a little bit easier--the phonetics sometimes, you know- and that made it a little bit easier. But it took about two years to really--to be bar mitzvahed. Of course, that's one of the greatest things in--of your life of your children is that you have--. And now they have bas mitzvah; and years ago I don't remember girls having them--until later on, you know, as things begin to get more modern. And the girls now have a bas mitzvah, which is the same, only it's a girl--for a girl. And it's basically the same idea.

JH:I know that confirmation is mainly a Reform thing, but some people I've talked to were confirmed even though they came from an Orthodox background.

BF:They did; because, here again, it's just that some of them could not learn the Hebrew. Now, I was bar mitzvahed--but it was very difficult for me. But I had someone else help me: at that time in our Jewish community, we had several of the so-called "senior citizens," who were a little bit older--to me, they were older--they were prob'ly forty and fifty, but--and they helped me. I'd go to their house, and then we'd read out of the book, and he would explain to me about what it meant and so on. And that's how I did it--more than through a rabbi--quite honestly.

JH:Who was it?

BF:Well, at that time, he was a relation to--and I'm tryin' to think o' who he is, now--Izzie would know that; Hymie would know that, too. And he lived near where we lived, about a block or so from us. And quite honestly, I can't think of his name; I know he went back to Israel eventually. And I cannot think of his name; I'll be very honest with you about it. But he did help me--in the evenings; I can picture him, and I just can't think of his name right now. Maybe I'll think of it a little bit later on. But anyway, it's difficult, possibly, to understand, when you're talkin' about--you know--reading Hebrew and learning your passages that you had to learn for your particular -for your bar mitzvah. And it was very difficult for me, quite honestly. And my dad would try to help me--o' course, my dad could read Hebrew quite well; but you have more patience when you have a stranger, I think, teaching you, rather than your dad.

JH:Were both your parents from an Orthodox background?

BF:Orthodox family, right; all of us, uh huh.

JH:Now, did your family consider yourselves--and did you consider Shaare Zedick--Orthodox when you were a child?

BF:Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But it was--Shaare Zedick was Orthodox.

JH:Because some people have described it as--even from the beginning -as more Conservative than Orthodox.

BF:Well, let's face it; you're in a small community, where--. But it was definitely--. It would not be Orthodox per se--like in a real Orthodox--in St. Louis--you couldn't ride a car to services on Friday. You had to walk.

JH:Did you walk?

BF:But, see, we didn't do that, no.

JH:Did you live too far away?

BF:Oh, yeah, we lived pretty far. No one lived in the downtown area- maybe the Lotvens lived fairly close, but not that--

JH:They did for a while.

BF:Yeah; but they were, I would say, at least a mile--maybe two miles -from there--'cause they lived on State Street--I don't know if you know where that's located or not--State and New Street. Now, they lived over there, and, o' course they walked all the way down by the Landers Theater--[it] was pretty far. And I don't recall very many walking. Now, the Lotvens may have, because they were definitely of the real, true Orthodox family--and they still are. You know, Izzie--and Hymie, too, possibly--is very Orthodox today, which is pretty difficult in a town this size--and in this modern age--it's a little bit more difficult. And there's not very many who are that--. Maybe Nathan might have been--I don't think so--maybe in his later years; I don't know.

JH:But you still thought of yourselves as Orthodox.

BF:Yeah, we do, because that's how we were brought up from our--my grandfather--and my dad--and any of our immediate family; we were Orthodox, because--if we were in St. Louis, we would go to the Orthodox--. You know, there is hundreds of temples--which is, you know, the Reform--and then was a Conservative in the middle for a while; and the Conservative now are become [laughing] more Orthodox really than the Orthodox. It's been kind of a strange--over the years, it's changed quite a bit, you know. Because what happened, I think the Conservative began to--they was tryin' to make it a little easier to break away from the Orthodox; but what happened now, they have become a little bit more--I think--more religious--in the sense--they don't walk to the temple--I don't think hardly anybody does today--except in the big city--where you can live close. I do think it's a little different; see, a lot of 'em call themselves Conservative today. Did someone tell you that in there- that we were--? To some people, they say, "Well, this was a Conservative"; I say, "No, it isn't; this is an Orthodox." But that doesn't necessarily mean it's Orthodox like the old-timers. Like anything else, it changes over the years. The Catholics, you know, used to be--it used to be in Latin. What is it today? I think it's in English--I'm not too sure.

JH: Here; yeah.

BF:Yeah, that's what I mean. So, consequently, a lotta those things change over the years.

JH:Do you remember women--

BF:Sitting separately?

JH:Yeah.

BF:I don't remember that in our community, no.

JH:Do you remember anything that women could not do that--

BF:Well, that's the only thing I can remember: is that I know that when I went to St. Louis, the women either sat upstairs in the balcony, or they sat separately. Now, that's--here again--that's the real Orthodox. And I'll be very honest with you: today I doubt if there's very, very few [sic] communities that still do that. I think we changed with the times a little bit. You know what I mean? A little more flexible--about life.

JH:Was yours a kosher house?

BF:No, we had no kosher house, because here they only had one person- this Mr.--I think--Mr. Littman--I don't know if they've mentioned that name. And I think his father--or his father-in-law--I don't know which one it was--who could bless the chicken or whatever- what had to be--you know--had to have a special blessing--a kosher; or else it had to be shipped in from somewhere else--they'd ship it from St. Louis or Kansas City--to have kosher food. Here again, it's the Lotvens who still--and I think they still do that; I'm not positive on that. But there's not too many o' those people around today; because, as they died off--. Unfortunately--or maybe fortunately- you know, his two boys married gentile girls--although his daughter has married a rabbi--you know. So, consequently, there, they may carry on the traditions a little bit more than his sons would. And it's the same way with most all of us today.

JH:Did you feel that education was emphasized when you were growing up?

BF:You mean, Jewish education?

JH:Well, both Jewish and secular.

BF:Oh, yeah! You gotta be--. The Jewish people are very much into education. Here's one thing I wanted to say to you before it got away from me is that you'll find--like I say--when our community started, most o' the people were in business. Now, these business people--retailers, mostly--had stores downtown; I can--. If I told you there was at least twenty Jewish stores within two blocks of the square--Jewish people who owned them.

JH:Twenty!

BF:At least. I can tell you--Campbell Street was one of our main streets--and College Street was one of our main streets; and the square and St. Louis. Those streets had, I would say, at least twenty Jewish owners of stores. Small stores, see; those were the days before the big--Heer's and, o' course, Famous Barr--things like that -today. But that's how they made their living; those were the more affluent people. Then the other people--the Jewish people here in town otherwise--like I say, Dad worked--he worked for this garment factory; and there was about ten or fifteen other men who were Jewish who also worked for the garment factory. They were not Frisco people, which was the big--at that time--a big population was employed by them. They were the people who really--those people were Christians, ninety-nine--I'd say--percent of 'em; there was no Jews in the Frisco. Not because they wouldn't hire 'em; it's just that they weren't involved in that kind o' work. So, consequently, the Jews--see, when they came here--most--like my grand-dad: he opened up a little store--you see; and that's how he made a livin'. And it was a little bit bigger store--but not gigantic; but he always made a nice living outta that little store. And so, when they brought people over, they'd say, "Well--you know--go into a little business, and do this." And that's how most o' the Jewish people got started when they came to this--they had little stores. You know, people were always sayin', "Well, the Jews have this" or "They're rich" and all that. It's not that they're rich; it's just they made a livin' on their own in a sense. I feel--that's--to me--is one o' the most important thing about the Jews: they're very industrious. But not physical industrious--you know what I mean? They don't go out and chop logs--or haul coal, at that time--or whatever; they like to be adminis--they like to use their head. They're very mentally capable--very mentally capable. And I think that's also from reading a lot--a lotta reading involved in the family. So that--I think that's--to me--you know, they say that Jews are different than anybody; they're not different, it's just their training--their training was education--very important. By the way, just to bring back with one little second that, now, if you'll notice, in Springfield, now almost all of the Jews who are so-called affluent, they're either professors, or they're doctors, or they're in the educational field- that's what's happened to our population; because the little merchant is gone. He died off--and his children went somewhere else. Possibly. I think you were saying something to me about it on the telephone because--they haven't stayed here. And that is the reason why: because the kids didn't want to be in the business; they wanted to do something else. Maybe they went to St. Louis, or they went to Chicago, went to New York, and did their thing. But, overall, most of those young people--left Springfield. And their children are--like me--or maybe a little younger than me--they left. Now, it just so happens my son is still here; and I have a daughter who's still here. Now, they married out of their faith. But, now, they come to the services once in a great while. But that's something that kinda hurts me as a--as a father and a Jew; but it's something I've always said: as long as they have good health and they're good people, I can't tell them how to live. If this is what they want--it just has to be that way. It's not always that way for most people. So sometimes the influence doesn't always help--even though you're maybe in that religion--does not always help keep them into it. And so, I think the idea that they had to leave town--which meant they met other people--maybe they met gentile girls; I don't know exactly how--I can't explain it completely. But that's what's happened to our community. After I talked to you, I thought about that a great deal. It was kind of an unusual point that you made--why the Jewish youngsters left Springfield. And that is the one reason. Their employment was not the same, 'cause their little store's gone: the chain stores came in and knocked them out. That's what's happening in Springfield today; you know, it's all--you go in the mall and see- you know there's no local stores in the mall? Right up here is sixty or seventy or eighty stores?--and none of 'em are local--anymore. I used to be in the mall; I was in Barth's--I had a shoe department in Barth's--a ladies' department. That was mine; I leased it. And I used to be in Marx before that. And the man died and then somebody else bought it. So, consequently, that took me out. Now, ordinarily I would have maybe gone somewhere else. But I was a little bit older, and I had saved a few dollars--and we liked Springfield, and two of my children are here. And meanwhile, I have a daughter out in California who married a Jewish fellow--he's an accountant--out in California--see? So, you have to get away from Springfield in order to go to where Jewish population is--there're just not that many of 'em here. And that's what's happening to the community- unfortunately. But meanwhile, they're tryin' to build a new synagogue here, you know.

JH:What activities or social organizations were you involved in when you were growing up?

BF:Well, I'll tell you what: most o' the things that we did--now, you're talkin' about as far as Springfield--in our Jewish community? We had the B'nai B'rith, which was a very strong lodge here in town--and that's nationwide.

JH:But there was a chapter here.

BF:There [is] a chapter here; right. And that was prob'ly the biggest and most well-known [in the] community; and they helped, especially for people to get to Israel--over the years; you know, they tried to help people--with money: war Bond drives--not War Bond drives--it was the United Jewish Appeal--the U.J.A. That became important, and we would work on that, and we would try to--. However, I will tell you this--and we could 'a been wrong: we very seldom approached Christians--to appeal to them for that. Except maybe if we were selling some kind of a raffle ticket or something, or somebody was gonna have a play--because we used to have a players--we used to have a group of people who put on plays--who were interested, and they were actors--not professional, but--amateur; and we put on plays at our synagogue--where we're at now--our temple- whatever.

JH:What kind of plays?

BF:Well, different--they'd put on maybe some kind of a Broadway type show; I don't know, you know. And it was very good, and we would raise money that way, through that. Then we used to have dinners- open to the public--for people to come. And it used to be every--it was quite interesting, because there was a lotta dishes that were a little different--unusual.

JH:Were these the gourmet dinners?

BF:Gourmet dinners; right.

JH:When did they start?

BF:Well, [chuckling] it's been quite a few years ago; I really can't tell you. My wife could tell you, because she always worked with the gourmet dinners. And we've always enjoyed that, but--here again, the older people who used to do the cooking--they died off, or they're old--Mrs. Sass was very big in that--. Her husband, by the way, was a very big contributor to our community. He was a very fine man, Mr. Sass was. And Mr. Bluestein, o' course, is a relation. But anyway, those gourmet dinners used to make us quite a bit o' money, you know. But it was just--the younger people today don't [laughs]--

JH:Well, can you remember how old you were when you were in--

BF:Oh--let's see; well, my wife and I--we've been married forty-seven years, so that's been less than, I would say, twenty-five years ago- less than that.

JH:That they started?

BF:That they had 'em. I don't know if they started at that time, but they were going on at that time. I don't remember when they started, but I don't think it was during my mom's time; and so it had to be--. I really don't know.

JH:But B'nai B'rith, would that have been when you were--

BF:That's a lodge that I was--

JH:--older?

BF:I was already older; oh, yeah. I was already married.

JH:What about when you were, say, in high school?

BF:Nothing--we had no, really, organization here.

JH:Was there a youth group?

BF:There was a youth group; I was not involved in that, and it was not very strong. My son was in the Youth Group, and they went on trips: they went to Colorado--and they went to Kansas City, on conclaves and things. But I was never really involved in that, quite honestly.

JH:How big a part did the synagogue, or the congregation or whatever, play in your life when you were growing up and then as you became an adult?

BF:The only--our social life was for holidays, basically. They did have, as I grew up, however--well, maybe this would be even a little later--we have like New Year's Eve parties, and we would even--we would invite--we would sell tickets to certain different--who were not members of our congregation. Now, I don't know if you know anything about the Syrians here in town. Do you know the Ferris family? Okay; now, they always ask me how come we don't put on New Year's Eve part--they used to come all--see, that whole little group; they would sit on one side of the congregation during the New Year's Eve or something, and we would sit on the other side. But we were friends and we danced together, and that was really the time really when there 'as conflicts--you know, there's always been conflicts with the Syrians, or so-called, or whatever you want to call 'em--in that part o' the country. But yet we always got along together. We have always been very close--in the sense that we never--I don't think we were ever derogatory towards them and they were never derogatory towards us; it's very strange. And so they always tease me about, why don't you have another New Year's Eve party? We cut out a lotta that stuff. And I don't why, except maybe the younger generation--I'm talkin' about the ones who are in their thirties or forties--never wanted to get--never got involved in it. And then we made money that way--you know, for our little congregation. But when we get through, I'll tell you more about the so-called synagogue that they're--wanta try to build; I don't know if that interests you or not, but it might. It'll bring us more up to date, I hope.

JH:What was it like growing up Jewish in Springfield?

BF:I will tell you, Springfield is prob'ly one o' the few towns--and you know it's a big Baptist community here; I have never--in all my life -and I went all my schooling--went right here in Springfield, and went to college here-- graduated from SMS--I have never had anybody ever call me a "dirty Jew" or a "Jew"--in a derogatory way -ever. And I've always felt good about that. And I've never felt inferior to anybody, or ever felt that somebody was gonna call me a "dirty Jew." Now, a lotta people--and I don't know about Springfield--and I know in the cities, it gets maybe a little rough sometimes, and that's where it shouldn't be; but there's more population there. But I think it's--maybe it's because they can say, "Well, we can absorb the Jews in Springfield"; I don't know. You know, I think about these things sometimes. But I try not to, because I've never--we have never had a problem, and we've been socially with really more--[as much or more]--Christians than we have Jews, as far as our social life is concerned--quite honestly. We have never had a problem. We tease someone--now, [maybe] have a dirty joke about a Jew or something--you know; but they don't do it derogatory--they don't do it in a way--. Now, maybe sometimes they--maybe they say, "Well, we can't invite them 'cause they're Jewish"; but I've never heard that--I've never felt that--in my life, ever. And I've definitely been around more Christians than I have Jews--socially. Always. We've never had that problem; and I don't think there's too many--. You know, the Jewish people have a certain inferiority complex, I think--a lot of 'em; I don't know any of 'em here in Springfield, but I think there are--; and they stick together pretty close. So maybe sometimes their social life is not as great with the Christians as maybe ours would've been. I don't know. That's--sometimes I feel that. In other words, I think they feel that somebody is gonna say som'p'n derogatory. But I've never had that happen to me; I've been to several good parties--quite a- over the years, and I've never had anyone ever say to me, "Well, you're Jewish, and that's the way you would believe"--or something like--. But I've never had anybody--. We've discussed the Jews--and we've discussed Christians--one o' my best friends is Catholic--and a very devout Catholic; very devout. But he's my best friend; he used to work for me when I managed a shoe store here in town. And his brother worked for me. And they're--they're wonderful! And his wife and him are close friends; they come over to our house--and we enjoy ourselves. And, you know, when we tease about--"Well, the holidays are comin' up"--you know; o' course, we [were] always talkin' about Christmas and things like that. And we exchanged gifts--you know. I don't think religion--to me--these are all my opinions--it's for your own [home]--it's for your family. I'm not tryin' to make somebody convert to Judaism, and they're not tryin' to convert me to Catholicism. That's in your mind, anyway; let's face it. Religion is something that you have--it's in your own mind. I think that--to me--has always been a personal thing; and it shouldn't involve anybody. And maybe that's why I've never had any problems that way. We never want to tell somebody, "You should come to ours and see how we do in here," you know. But I don't--I don't do that; I don't believe in that. I don't believe--I could be wrong.

JH:Fannie said she didn't know that this was necessarily true, but she thought it was a possibility that Jews in Springfield--because it was such a small population--might have--oh--the way she put it was, "behaved better," or just minded their p's and q's, maybe--or maybe tried harder--you know, like the Avis Rent-a-Car.

BF:Well, now, I'll tell you what, unfortunately, there's a stereotype of a Jew: and he's usually--I hate to say this--and I don't know if you [were] born here or whatever--who they call a "New York Jew." Now, a "New York Jew" is what they used to call 'em years ago. What is a New York Jew? A New York Jew is one who's loud--obnoxious--and just--just really a little crude. And now, that is a stereotype nationwide; that has become a stereo--and that's not true at all. That's my opinion.

JH:[Facetiously] I think all New Yorkers are!

BF:Well, maybe I shouldn't say New York. But I just mean, there are those kind: they're in California, they're in Chicago--and they're prob'ly in Springfield. But in Springfield this has not happened that way. I don't think of anyone in Springfield--even who passed on, or now--who was loud and obnoxious and--whatever--that would be called a crude person; they're not. Now, maybe that's what--. I'll be very honest with you: the country club--Hickory Hills Country Club, out here--now, there's not very many towns that have one of their more exclusive country clubs that, say, anybody--. Now, some o' those were the founders of the Hickory Hills Country Club. Faymans, who had the jewelry store here: they were founders of the country club--Hickory Hills Country Club. So they were amongst 'em. So, they were absorbed--they came into the community--and I don't know if they had a limit; maybe they did, I don't know. But all I can tell you is they were founders of the country club here--of the biggest one here in town. So we--we've really never--like I say, I'm sure, when you get out into the countryside--maybe, in the weird areas, I don't know--maybe there was--I'm sure there are some who--. But I've never faced that, and I am very proud o' that; and that's one reason why I stayed in Springfield. 'Cause my wife would love to move to California--'cause, like I say, I have that one daughter--but I have two of my kids here. But it's just that I'm comfortable; I've never run into a problem at all. And I think I have as many friends as the Christians have Christian friends--quite honestly.

JH:So you don't remember anything when you were a child--

BF:No. No.

JH:--or any problems at school?

BF:Never--never--no; no problems at school whatsoever. In fact, when they used to--at Jarrett Junior High School--that's where I went- to Jarrett Junior High--at Christmas they always have a play--a Christian play--you know, about the birth of Christ. And I was in the choir! And I think there 'as several other Jewish--I know Harold Arbeitman--that would be Fannie's brother-in-law--he was in the choir. But--so what? You know--is that--ba--? I always felt good that I could be in it! Like I say, religion is something that's--it's a mental thing that people sometimes, I think they--they miss the point.

JH:How did you meet your wife?

BF:Okay, well, I met her--[laughs]. Good thing she's not here; she's a southerner, and she's a great talker; she's much bigger of a talker than I am. But anyway, I met her--I was in the service in World War II, and I was stationed--temporarily--I was stationed in Ft. Warren -I mean, I was at Ft. Warren, Wyoming, and I was transferred to Camp Lee, Virginia, for a training program. Camp Lee, Virginia, is, I would say, sixty miles from Richmond. And she was a member of the hostesses--'cause it was during the war--who came to the synagogue to have dan--they had dances and served cokes and--you know--and all that kind o' stuff--entertainment committee. And I met her there because--I was at Petersburg, which is at Camp Lee- and I met her--. We went--where do the Jewish guys go? They go to the--you know--to the synagogue. Not to pray, but to see the girls, you know!

Tape I, Side 2
BF:Now, her folks had a grocery store there, and so we met--that was on a Saturday night. And quite honestly, the strange part about it- they never had any services, you know--I wouldn't go to service; 'cause Friday I wasn't in town. So we didn't have to go to a service; all we did was go there and play and have a good time. So she said, "Why don't you come over to my house Sunday and have lunch with- or dinner?"--you know. 'Cause I had to get back to camp that evening. So I said, "Well, that'd be nice." So the next morning I called her up, and I said, "Are you sure everything's okay?" She said, "Sure, come on over!" And they actually lived above the grocery store--and their kitchen was down in the main floor. So I went over there, and naturally I met her mother and father. And--Jewish people are always glad when their daughters or sons meet Jewish girls or boys; I'm sure the same way was with you. And so, you know, they size you up, is what you might say. The funny thing is, when I went to Camp--I'd never been east--that far east; and I thought, boy, when I get to Petersburg, every weekend I'm gonna go either to New York, I'll go to Philadelphia, I'll go to Washington, D.C. -hell! I was there twelve weeks, and I never got to go there, 'cause I kept goin' back to Richmond! And we had a date almost every weekend, you know. And we became very close, and then we corresponded when I went overseas--I was in the Philippines--and we'd correspond, you know. And when I came back--I was over there for over a year--about thirteen months, I think--. I came back, and, like I said, we were corresponding, so she wanted to know if I was gonna come to visit, you know; and I said, "Well, yeah, I think so"-- 'cause my brother was in the Marines and he was at Camp Pendleton, which was not--about two hundred miles from Richmond; I said, "Yeah, I'll come back and I'll visit you." So we, naturally, came back, and I said, "Gee, she's--I think she's still--I still like her real well." You know, it had been some time. So I said, "Why don't you come back with me? I'd like for you to meet my folks." So she came with me- you know--and really she didn't know me except from the army. So she came back and went on the train--came back and we got to St. Louis--and my folks met us in St. Louis. And they had weather almost like this: a big snowstorm that day. So we came back to Springfield and--and they liked her. That's how it went. And so we corresponded for a while--I came back then--and we became engaged; and we got married in 1947. And, thank God, we've been married ever since. And we've had a nice life; we've had three children. And, like I say, two of 'em--I have a boy and a girl who live here, and one girl out in California. And my daughter here has a little girl, and my son has a boy and a girl--she's sixteen and she goes to a Catholic school. She wanted to go for a better education, 'cause I think Catholic schools have maybe better than the primary school--I don't know. [We discuss St. Agnes School and the Ferris family.] Well, see, now, my wife works for the Ferrises. And so, anyway, and then, like I say, my daughter out in California, she's married to an accountant and he's Jewish and--maybe it's because in a big city you do get more opportunities to meet Jewish girls. Because, like, very honestly, there's not--hardly any Jewish girls in Springfield--because they go away.

JH:You were saying that a lot of--like your children's generation married [BF: Intermarried.] gentiles--right. What about your generation? Did they mainly marry within the faith?

BF:I'm just tryin' to think of anyone who did not. Now, I will tell, you- too--did you say you knew Dr. Lurie? Well, you know, his brother was one o' my best friends--his younger brother; and we went around together quite a bit. And he was killed in the service. Now, that's a younger brother; he had another brother also who died--a couple years ago. So Hal has been a good friend; but he's a little bit older than I am: I mean, he's seventy, and I'm gonna be seventy. But [Don] was a very good friend, and another friend was Harold Arbeitman, which was Fannie's brother-in-law--he used to live here. He lives in California; so we correspond a great deal. Those are the people that I ran around with as young people. But there was other people--but of the Jews, you're talkin' about. But we had other friends who- with Harold and myself--and we used to go to dances together--we had a lotta dances in those days; and we'd play poker together; and we would do things together. But they were Jews and Christians together. Harold and I were naturally a little bit closer--because we are Jewish together; but we always had these friends. And we were in fraternities together--in high school--they had high school fraternities then; I don't know if they have those things now or not. And I joined a fraternity in college. I was the only Jew in that fraternity at the time, but I only was in there for a year, 'cause that's when I went into the service. So I would say--here again, getting back to the question of Jews and Christians in Springfield- there has been very--. Now, they say that there--sometimes at the synagogue--that they had threatening phone calls--at the synagogue here. We have. And maybe they've thrown a rock through the window. I'm sure it's happened; I'm not sayin' it hasn't. But as far as my personal life is concerned, as far as my wife or any o' my family -I don't think we've ever had any problems whatsoever. But we didn't have a lot of, like I say, a Jewish--our social life was basically with the Christians and Jews together. But, like I say, Harold- there 'as Harold Arbeitman and Don Lurie who were close friends; but we didn't have that many girls--you know, in our cir--to be together, in a sense, as far as--. And that's prob'ly why intermarriage within this city--. It was a little bit more diff--you had to go somewhere else--to find your wife or your husband--I'm afraid; that's just what happened. 'Cause when you grow up with 'em, sometimes you don't like 'em too well! [Laughs] You know, you know their faults--you know! You know their father and mother--or, gosh, I hate their mother and father, or something like that. And so it kind of makes it--in a way--I don't know. Now, what else?

JH:So you went a year to college and then joined the service?

BF:Well, yeah, but I came back and went back into college, and I graduated from--. I went into the service for three years. 'Cause I was up for draft. And so, when I came back, then I came back and went back to school--went back to college: SMS. 'Cause I had one year--of my education--and then I decided to go into the service, because I was gonna be drafted. So I went into the service--I graduated high school in '41--and went into the service in '43--early '43. And, like I say, I got one year in. And when I came back, I thought, well, I'm gonna go back to school, and that's very important. So, I thought, well, I'll just go locally--my mother and dad were still living here. My brother was gone--I did have a brother by the way, who lives in Texas. And so, meanwhile, I kept corresponding with my future wife, and so that's why I really kinda held back from getting married at the beginning; we didn't get married immediately after I got back, 'cause I wanted to finish my education. But by the time I got to my last--oh, I guess, a year and a half-- to get out, we got married. And by the time I graduated from college, my wife was pregnant. So, that's my [laughing] little history of the college education--and so on. And I have a degree in accounting, and I never used it. But I was already working in the shoe business; I've been in the shoe business for forty-seven years, as far as--and I had my own store--we had our own store for about fifteen--about twenty years. But we gave it up; we ran into a problem: we were a lease department in Marx men's store--they used to have a ladies' shop--a ladies' department--and I had the ladies' clothing, I had the ladies' shoes--in the mall. And Mr. Marx, Sr., died. And when he died, his son sold the store to a man from California; and, man, he wanted the whole store. So we had to get out. We were forced out, and we had to go across the street into the Brentwood Center. And it was not favorable, because at that time, the mall had only been about--oh, maybe three years old. People still were flocking to the mall; it was new--in a sense. And so we just couldn't do it; and we just had to go outta business. We failed--you know; it's one of those things. So then I went to work for Famous Barr. And I worked there for a while, and--did okay; because, naturally, I was workin' for a chain store--I didn't particularly care for that bit: you know, you don't have much thinking up here to do. And so we tried business again, and--it was okay--you know, we did okay--but it was just not--we were not making the money thought we should have for the investment we had. And so I--I got back out of it again. I went back now--I work at Famous Barr, but I just work there part-time; I work three or four days a week. And it works out okay, 'cause now I'm on Social Security; and my wife's on Social Security, and she works three or four days a week. 'Cause we're kind of antsy; we're not the kinda people who just sit home. And I'm not a golfer; I'm not a fisherman; and I'm not a sport enthusiast--except I like to watch baseball or football. So therefore that two or three days kinda keeps me busy, and the fact that--the sense that people know me, I have a kind of an ego trip, because people'll--: "Oh, Bernie, I'm so glad you're here! You can help me with--. I've got shoes that I bought from you twenty years ago--or five--"; "I've got your boots that I bought"--'cause we had expensive shoes and we had expensive clothes. So, that kinda gives you an ego--"Boy, they still remember me!"--you know. But I just--now I just kinda take life a little bit easy in a way.

JH:How did you get into the shoe business?

BF:Well, I'll tell you: Hymie Lotven was the one who started me in that, because he managed a shoe store on the square--it was called the Vanity Shoe Store; and I was goin' to college, when I started my college--and I worked for him part-time--on Saturdays, you know. But then what happened? I had to go into the service. And when I came back--you know, we started talkin', and he--"I'll give you a part-time job while you're going to school." Well, it so happened that he recommended me for a store down in Galveston, Texas. And we were married, and my wife had already had a little baby, less than a year old; and we went to Galveston for a year. And then I got a phone call one time from the home office--said, "How would you like to go back to Springfield?" "Well, you gotta be kidding: I'd love to go back to Springfield!" So Hymie left the shoe business, and I took over that job. And that's when it all started with me bein' really in the shoe business; that's forty-seven years--been doing that.

JH:You've already answered a couple of these questions: What trades did the original Jewish settlers in Springfield pursue?

BF:Well, here again, mostly were retailers. Except for the manufacturing of clothing--like I say, my uncle, for example. My dad was a tailor--he was a tailor type per--he used to train people how to sew on the machines. And that's the beginning of mass production of clothing--or pants: we're talkin' about pants, basically. One person would put on the belts--the seams--or certain kind o'--I don't know that much about a pair o' pants; and then it would go down the line to somebody else. And my uncle was kind of a supervisor over that. Then they had a Jewish man who was the head cutter. His name was Cohen; he was from New York. And then we had a couple from St. Louis, and they worked into the stitching area of the clothes and how they were made and so on. And the man who actually operated the plant--who managed the plant--his name was Kransberg--a Jewish man, also from St. Louis. So these were the Jewish people who were not really in retail--not in the retail part. But most of 'em were in retail. And I can tell you, on Campbell Street alone, I guess there--like I say, maybe ten or fifteen businesses. College Street prob'ly had four or five businesses.

JH:Is this like in the '20s and '30s?

BF:This is in the '30s. I could 'a been twelve or fourteen years old--and born in '23; so that would 'a made it already in the '30s--the late '30s--you see? And so, on the square there must 'a been--the LeBolts, I guess--I don't know if know o' them, or if you heard about them--the LeBolts; yeah, they had a very fine store on the square. Netter's, which was down on St. Louis Street, was a very fine store. And in the Netter's family, o' course, they only had one child--it was girl. And so--and she didn't want the business too much; she was not--she managed it for a while, and then she got married; and she became ill and died very young--[a] fairly young woman. And then, o' course, where Barth's was, that had been a different name; but [then] the Barth's bought it. And they were bachelors: there was four men -Barths, their name was--and two of them lived in Oklahoma and two lived in Springfield. And these guys never got married. So that pulled that down, except when their nephew eventually took over the business; he was from outta town--and his name was Liebman. Then we had a Mr. Herman, also an old-timer--an old man--in the sense that he didn't get married till he was--I guess, fifty. In fact, I saw her the other day, first time--his wife; he died--and she's still living. And then the Rubensteins: they died, except for the--they do have children--they had children--and I don't know if you've met George Rubenstein or not; and Mrs. Rubenstein of the two--there were two brothers; and the sister lives down in Greenfield: that's who you're gonna talk to eventually. So they put a store in here and did a nice size business. And then we had a Mr. Rosen; he had a store on the corner of Campbell and College Street. And he came over from the war--; a lot of 'em came over before the war--to get outta the country.

JH:That's Arthur Rosen?

BF:Arthur Rosen, right. [Discussion of Mr. Rosen.] Now, he and I--you know, we'ere talkin' about our little community--our little synagogue; when we decided to move over there--. Like I told you, the men who were in charge of the temple--they liked the services the way they wanted 'em. So we were not too happy about it. And we joined the community because--you know, we tried to pool our money in order to--like I say--to save money: we'ere downtown; we decided to come out--to the temple. So Mr. Rosen--he was president of the congregation--and I--he and I--we started petitioning to have our services changed, so that everybody would be happy. First of all, they didn't like Hebrew at all in the service, because they were not -educated that way; I'm talkin' about the Reform. Not that I can really read Hebrew, but the service was different than what the Orthodox--. We wanted it more equal--because we had as many members as they did.
JH:What time period?

BF:We're talkin' about--I think my wife put it down here [refers to notes]--I'm not too sure: 1953--that was when it was built.

JH:Well, I know there was a consolidation in '48.

BF:Right. Well, that's when it was: 1948, then. So what happened, we wanted--[and] they didn't want us to wear yarmulkes. And that's- that's kind of important to me; it's stupid, but it's kind of important to me. You know, it's a tradition: certain things that you grew up with, and that's how you believe--and you don't know why, maybe- but it's there. So, consequently--well, he was talkin' about it, and I said, "I'll tell you what: I'm gonna go around and see if we can get a petition signed, so we can change the services, so that everybody can be--it'd be more equalized. We['d] have more English and more- and Hebrew"--we wanted a little bit of each--a little bit of each. So, consequently, I started a petition--and also, Ena Tarrasch--Ena's a wonderful person--and she; we went around and got petitions. And we got what we wanted. We had them change the by-laws--because there were certain things in there that they wanted that we just couldn't live with it any longer. 'Cause once you get involved with people, who--your thinking is different than theirs, it becomes a little bit--you know, you're desperate to get together, but yet it's just not quite--what you dreamed of. You know, it's like when some people get married--it's not the way they'd like it to be, you know what I mean? So, consequently, we decided to get a petition, and Arthur Rosen was in charge o' that; and we did get it passed so [it was] a more equal service--even though we do have a lot of English; but we still have some Hebrew now that maybe we didn't have before.

JH:Well, okay; I'm confused about the time frame in this. There was a consolidation in '48, and then the Community Center was built in '54; and then you had the two separate services.

BF:Well, yes, well--because, what happened--at first we had services in the little room--we had a separate service; and we were not too happy about that.

JH:In a little room--you mean in the sanctuary?

BF:Yeah. Okay. Well, it's not in the sanctuary, but right behind the auditorium--right as you walk in, you can go to your left--

JH:Right, well, I've heard people refer to it as the "sanctuary."

BF:Well, now--and see, the thing is, we were having our services in there, and darn!--and we were crowded! You know. And we thought, "Well, wait a minute! We're payin' our share--you know--of whatever the dues were at that time; but we're not really getting as much out of this as they are." Even though it was their building--at the time--you know; I mean, they started this building; they organized it. But we just felt that--it was not quite right. And so this is when we decided to--. It was not a revolution--

JH:So it must've been in the '50s.

BF:It might 'a been. My wife's got 1953 down here, but she said, "Then the building was in 1953"--see. she's got a question mark there.

JH:'54 is what the cornerstone says.

BF:Well, I know it says '54 on there. [Inconclusive discussion of dates.] All I can remember is that we were not happy with the situation- and we did get it changed.

JH:So for how long did you have regular--

BF:You mean, in our own little temple--little building, you're talkin' about? [JH: Within the--] Within the temple.

JH:Right.

BF:Okay. We prob'ly did that, I guess, about five years. Maybe longer- maybe ten years; I don't really recall--honestly.

JH:So during all this time--

BF:Even during the holidays.

JH:So during all this time you were trying to change it, though?

BF:Well, we weren't tryin' to change it, but we just got disgusted with the fact that we were just crowded and we were jammed--. And when [we] had the holidays, we would take our community--our little community--and take it out into the auditorium--bring out the altars--everything out--so that we could actually have everybody come in and have the service.

JH:Was that everybody? Was that from both congregations?

BF:Well, what--we did, because that time we had the rabbi, like I told you, and he was more of the Orthodox. And the service was good, and we also had somebody--we would get somebody from the school- from their college--the Hebrew College--I mean, from the college- there's two of 'em: one's for the Orthodox and one's for the Reform. We would get somebody who would be more from the Orthodox, who would help put our service on. Because they would have a service in there and we'd have a service in here--it was kinda dumb!
JH:Are you talkin' about holidays or regular--

BF:Holiday--holidays; for the holidays. So, all of a sudden, their service may be over. And then they would start walkin' in to where we were havin' our service. Now, they were--you know--they were gentlemen about it, and they were quiet; but it was the idea that- "What's goin' on? They're over there"--or maybe we would have ours over--our part of it was over. And it just didn't--this wasn't right, you know; this is not the way to do--: it's ridiculous!

JH:So--

BF:We changed--we did; we organized having a service for everybody. That was the whole idea.

JH:Okay. And that was when you were talking about the petition.

BF:The petition, right.

JH:And that would have been in--

BF:Well, I don't really know; I don't have it down--

JH:Maybe that would've been in the '60s.

BF:It may have--I don't really remember; it could 'a been. You know what, you'd almost have to ask--now, that's why you should talk to Arthur Rosen. And I think that Izzie should know.

JH:Well, Izzie said the '60s, but I've gotten so many conflicting--

BF:It could be the '60s; I don't--. Well, that's one thing I will tell you- now, I don't really recall when we did change it; but I just know that I was involved, and Arthur Rosen was president o' the congregation. [Discussion of interviewing Arthur Rosen.] You know, he's from the Old Country; he was one o' the men who came over from the war years. And he came over here; and I think his business was destroyed, and he got reparations--because of what happened in Germany--and he started that business.

JH:I'm trying to get it clear--I guess I had gotten an impression that separate services in--

BF:Had existed for some time.

JH:No, I mean, like--under the same roof--

BF:Uh huh; right.

JH:--existed for quite a while; and that it was only recently that they stopped having separate services. But maybe that's only recently--

BF:Well, when you say recently, what do you mean recently?

JH:Well, like five years ago.

BF:No, it's more'n five years--oh, yeah.

JH:Well, maybe when people say that, they mean the high holy days.

BF:It could be; it could be. All I know is that--like I say, I can't give you the exact date--[more discussion of dates.]

JH:But you remember it happening quite a while ago.

BF:Oh! Well, when I say quite a while, I'd say at least--[Mr. Fetter phones wife to consult.] [Ten or twelve years.]

JH:Ten or twelve years.

BF:When we decided to have our services together--completely in the--

JH:Only that long; I mean, no longer than that.

BF:Now, we're talkin' about services together; now, before that we had 'em in the small room--before that. We're not talkin' about in the small room, are you? You're talkin' about--together.

JH:No, I'm talking about not just under one roof, but combined--same service.

BF:Service. She figures about twelve years. That's what she figured.

JH:But during the entire time, though, that you were having the separate services, was there a sense of wanting to combine?

BF:Well, I thought so; because, first of all, it was so foolish when their service would be over and they would be coming to the auditorium, and there's noise and there's kids--and then, vice versa with us, you know. And it was just kinda foolish. And we had like a temporary rabbi--we'd hire somebody from Cincinnati, which is where the rabbinical college--and we would have to hire somebody just for that serv--just for the holidays, you know. But not weekdays--not regular Friday night service. Somebody else conducted on a Friday night service, like the Lotvens or somebody--would conduct a regular Friday night service. But for the holidays, we would have somebody only in our little room there--you know--which was too small--to me; we [were] packed in that. Then they moved; they said, "Well, let's move it out into the auditorium." Well, then we moved it out into the auditorium, and that was almost too big--plus the fact that they would come from their service into where we were and it would disturb--it'd be disturbing, you know what I mean? This is ridiculous, you know what I mean? It's just like school's out--for them--in a way; they'd come in there, and meanwhile, our service is still goin' on. See? The Orthodox service.

JH:Is this in the little room?

BF:No, in the big room. What happened--we had it so small, we couldn't all get in there during the holiday.

JH:Oh, I was gonna say--one thing I've noticed is that people aren't making distinctions between the holidays and the regular ones, and so when I ask questions often they think I'm talking about the holidays.

BF:Let me tell you one thing: Friday night--Friday is always a small group--not a lot of members. I don't know how they do in the churches--but Christmas is when it's really packed, right?

JH:Yeah, right.

BF:Okay, it's the same principle.

JH:Well, were the numbers coming to the small room dwindling on Friday nights, too?

BF:No; no. No, Friday night--I'll tell you what--better than the Reform -always. Well, Friday night--don't forget: these are the more--the Orthodox [are] considered more religious--would be more apt to go to services than the Reform. But they had a rabbi.

JH:You were talking about people going to both--

BF:Both. Well, they did!

JH:--even early. But people, later, were doing that, too, weren't they?

BF:Oh, sure. They did that; and we always did it. I'll tell you what, first of all 'cause it was in English--we could understand it; and not only that, but they had the rabbi; we didn't have a rabbi. The Orthodox did not have a rabbi at the first. That was the point- that's we decided to get [united].

JH:So did you go to both sometimes?

BF:Well, sometimes we would, but not always. But on Friday night, basically it was in Hebrew--no rabbi. I'm talkin' about Friday night regular services. But out there--I mean, in the Reform--they had the rabbi. We paid for the rabbi. [We] all paid for the rabbi. But their service was mostly in English--plus the fact that they had the rabbi, which--naturally, you would rather have the rabbi, 'cause you would have a sermon; it would be an interesting service--as far as I was concerned--'cause I could understand it. But the older genera- like Izzie and his group--they liked the old Orthodox service; they grew up with it: that's the point.

JH:When you were growing up, on high holidays--

BF:We would have an Orthodox service.

JH:Yes, but would you get a rabbi or was it a cantor.

BF:No, sometimes only a cantor. Because, what happened, a lot of 'em were students--they were students. In fact, we always had students up till recently--except for Rabbi Jacobs--who are going to school, and during the holidays they hire them out. "Well, we have someone here who can take the service," and quite honestly I don't know whether they're considered a rabbi at that time or not, but most of them are students. I think we called them rabbis, to be honest with you, but I think most of them were actually students- learning to be a rabbi. And they would come out and give the services. They would come from Cincinnati--is where I think--some of 'em came maybe from New York; I don't know.

JH:Do you remember Rabbi Richter?

BF:Oh, yeah. He was one of our first--that I can remember as a youngster. And I would call him a modern rabbi. In fact, he used to live upstairs from my aunt and uncle--on Grand Street down here by SMS. And we still get messages from him on the holidays: you know, "Congratulations in the holiday; hope everybody's well," and all that. He was quite a wonderful man. Did somebody tell you about him?

JH:A little bit.

BF:'Cause here again that's only the old-timers who would remember him. He was a very fine man--very fine. But, now, see, he was considered--now, he was not really an Orthodox; he was really a Reform rabbi; and quite honestly, I would say one o' the first ones that I can remember. I can't remember how old I was--. Did they give you the year that he was here? Did it say? Or do you know?

JH:I've forgotten. I think it was something like '39 or '38.

BF:Yeah, see '39; see, that was--yeah, that's right; it was before the war, wasn't it?

JH:You were pretty young at the time when Richter arrived.

BF:But I was not that young; I mean, I was a teenager.

JH:Oh, were you?

BF:Yeah.

JH:What did you feel the difference was--

BF:I couldn't tell, because I didn't participate with him too much--only because we were still separate. Still separate. But I knew him- and, like I say, he lived upstairs from my aunt and uncle; and we knew him more socially than I did from the services and all. But I know he was a very fine person.

JH:If we just back up real briefly. What do you remember about the Depression?

BF:Well, the Depression was very difficult, but not for us. Now, in fact, most of the people of the Jewish community who lived in Springfield suffered very little; and, here again, because the business that my dad was in--or what he did--was with this garment factory. Now, they made pants even during the bad times. And the reason why that--because it was inexpensive, and they were like work pants. And that's all people could afford; they didn't buy many dress pants. So, consequently, a lotta my aunts and uncles--not a lot of 'em, but several of 'em--in St. Louis had a very difficult time, especially on my mom's side. And we used to drive all the way up to St. Louis with groceries--for them--because they just didn't have a job. And they'd have a little food; you know, you had relief--they used to call it the "relief program" for people--and they'd bring around flour and stuff like that so they could--survive. And it [was] very difficult. But we would do that; and we went up there maybe--maybe once a month. And at that time, the roads were not like they are today; you know, there wasn't four lanes--it was a two-lanes, and some of it was even dirt roads. But my life, actually--we had no--we've always had food on table; my dad always made a livin'. And we lived, I think, prob'ly, as good as anybody: we had a telephone from when I 'as a little kid; we had a radio--. You know, these things don't sound like much to you, but in those days, it was a rarity--not rare, but in the sense that everybody didn't have one. We had a Victrola; we had a phonograph with a radio--eventually. And we were young at that time--oh, I was about seven years old, so that was 1930--see--or '31. I think '29 is when they say that was when things were bad. We never experienced any bad times during that--.

JH:Everyone has indicated that the proportion of retailers and small business people in Springfield during, say, the '20s through the '40s, was rather large.

BF:You mean in the Jewish population: yeah.

JH:That there was a large proportion of Jewish-owned--?

BF:Well, that's what I said, yeah; that's the first thing I would tell you.

JH:So, given that, would you say that, economically, the Jewish business population had an effect on Springfield and the surrounding area?

BF:Oh, absolutely. During that time. Right. Absolutely-- during that time. And you will see--now, like I say, I was namin' off some of the stores to you--but there was no heirs. Because, like the Netters--they had a very fine store: no heirs--because the girl died--she was--and only a girl. The Barths--no heirs; they went out--they died; they're gone. Mr. LeBolt; he had an heir and didn't want the business; they have two boys. See, he got married very late in life, but he had two boys--don't live in Springfield: no heirs to that business. So those were business--the Rubensteins; no one really to take over the business. So these are businesses that were very good ones--big ones--for Springfield--at that time; but no one to take over their business.

JH:When did most of them go?

BF:Oh, well, like, George Rubenstein was prob'ly the last one. He's somebody you might even talk to, because that would have been the time when--and the Barths--they died about ten years--but they had no--they were never married. So, consequently, that popula--and, like I say, Mr. LeBolt, he got married kinda late--and his boys didn't wanta be in the retail business. And Mr. Netter never wanted to have anybody in the business. It's just kinda hard to understand. And, now, Mr. Strauss died--and then, [Jeanne Kramer]--their children didn't wanta be in the business--I'm talkin' about Jeanne Kramer's son and two daughters; and one of 'em's a writer and he's, I think, an attorney--her son; so they don't live here. It's just that no one really took over that business, so, consequently--. And also, businesses became discounters--that was the beginning o' all that. And there was no one to take on those businesses, you know?

JH:Right. What would you say the standard of living [BF: For the Jews?]--yeah--reached by most people would have been?

BF:I would say good--and better. Because, here again, the country clubs--they were members of the country clubs; their social life was equal to anybody's. I can't think of maybe one--or two--people that I would know that maybe had maybe a difficult time--and I don't think they did. We just did not have that in this community. I don't think I ever remember having a dinner to raise money for somebody, unless it was a family goin' through town--and they went to the Jewish--. And, you know, years ago, people who were having a hard time--during the Depression--they'd come to Springfield or any town; then, where they go? They'd go to the temple--or to synagogue, or whatever you want to call it. And maybe there would be a rabbi there or somebody cleanin' up--maybe Hymie would be- and "We need food--we don't have no gas." And they had special fund for that; they would give them to go on their way and--give them food--but they wouldn't stay in Springfield; they wanted to go either to California--everybody was goin' to California in those days. But we never had--the local people--I don't recall anybody ever having- a difficult time. So we were very fortunate that way.

JH:Were there any individuals or families who prospered especially well?

BF:Well, yeah, [chuckling] I'd say there's been several. But here again, Dave LeBolt--he had the store; and the Netters. They prospered, but, see, they just weren't interested in keeping the--going on with the business. 'Cause what happened--I keep fluctuating, because now it's the doctors, you know, and the attorneys. Now, I'm not even thinkin' about those; I haven't mentioned 'em--you're talkin' about the old days.

JH:Right.

BF:Because we didn't have any professional people--I'm talking about attor--we had one attorney: [the] name was Irving Schwab. You heard about him apparently.

JH:Yeah, and there was some doctor named DuFrank, apparently. Does that ring a bell?

BF:No.

JH:He might have been real early; I don't know.

BF:Must 'a been; I don't remember him. And I'm sure there's some old timers way back. But they were all retailers; and retailers did well, 'cause the town was growing. It's always been a town that has grown; and there's not been--huge prosperity--but there's never been a Depression--even during the bad days. I don't know why, but--

JH:Well, did the prosperity of some make relations difficult?

BF:No! No--no.

JH:What about the relations between--you know, you were talking about just the sense of dissatisfaction of having the separate services and all that. What about socially? What were relations--growing up and all through--?

BF:No; no problem. 'Cause first of all, they had a Sisterhood, and all members were members of either the Reform or the--and they had no problem whatsoever; my wife was a member of the Sisterhood. We had a B'nai B'rith; I was a member--and all the other guys were mem--no problem whatsoever. We had no--never had any--. I think it was just a matter of [laughs]--you know--bullheadedness. Now, the Jews are very unusual in their--they're very bullheaded. By that, you know what I mean? That's means you don't wanta--you don't wanta give into the next guy; you don't wanta give in and say, "Okay, let's do it this way." Now, I'm just the reverse: I like to say, "Let's have a middle of the road here." But there was never those kind o' problems. Some of 'em, now--like I say, some of 'em didn't like this guy or that guy--I can think of one in particular that some people didn't like--because he acted like he wanted to run the community, you know what I mean? But that is--that's a rarity. And it--it didn't mean anything. That's just--some people are like that; some people are just--they want to be in charge. You can find that in any kind of a community, whether it'd be Christian or Jewish or anything.

JH:Was there anything that distinguished the two congregations besides just the services and--?

BF:No. By the way, I will tell you one thing, also--I guess you know this--but Mr. Karchmer was mayor of Springfield at one time; which I think was quite a--

JH:I have an entire paragraph on Mr. Karchmer--[laughing]. I haven't gotten to him.

BF:Well, he's--I will tell you, there's two people in this town--I think there's a--and I cannot tell you the history of it, but--there are certain people--I remember, oh, one of our rabbis talkin' about certain people who had--a certain--image. I can't describe it, except they are certain groups of people who are--who have a touch -[touches right shoulder with left hand] with God--you know, up here on the shoulder--just: Izzie Lotven and--Nathan Karchmer--[are] two of 'em. Absolutely great, wonderful people. There's no one like Izzie Lotven: wouldn't hurt anybody--wouldn't hurt a flea. Just- he's just good. Now, he adapted--now, like I say, he was a very religious man, and he still is--to our congregation. And, now, people in, maybe, a lotta cities, who were deeply religious wouldn't even go to the Reform --congregation; but he did. He accepted it. And Nathan, the same way--just--two wonderful people. What we'll do when they leave--although today they have nothing to say--you know, they don't go to any o' the Board meetings or anything like that. But it's just something about those guys that--you could sit and talk to 'em, you know, and have a--I don't know how long your conversation was with them--and it's worth ten times more than what I'm tellin' you; but just two guys that really--[pats shoulder with hand] [an] angel right here. They're just fantastic people. And I'll be honest with you: there's just no one that I've ever met- whether it'd be Jewish--or anything--that could compare with those two men. And I'll tell you what: you can ask anybody--and they'll tell you the same thing.

JH:Well, that reminds me--we sort of got away from the one subject of--

BF:What?

JH:Well, you know, you were talking about the petition drive. Now, was that to get one service?

BF:That was to get one service--that's right. And we had a vote--the congregation met; I gave a speech to say that we want a service--a united service for everybody: why should be in here and you all be in there? We [can] get a service that will be--what they had to do 'as sit down and they had a religious committee who adapted a service from both congregations that everybody would accept as being--. 'Cause they wanted a little bit more Hebrew into it--and maybe they didn't--you know, of the Reform.

JH:So this would be like about fifteen years ago?

BF:I think about ten; my wife said ten.

JH:Or ten years ago. So it wasn't all that far back.

BF:No--no.

JH:I was thinking you were talking about the '50s or something.

BF:No, I don't think it was that far; no.

JH:So this was to get--

BF:A united congregation.

JH:Had there been others who had thought in terms of that?

BF:Oh, well, we'd thought it, but nobody wanted to put [it] forward except myself and Arthur Rosen. We were the two that got it started.

BF:So you were trying to work out a compromise?

BF:Yes! And that's what we did: we worked out a compromise so we could have a service together. It was ridiculous! To be in the same building--you're over there and I'm over here! And it--what are we doin'? This is Judaism! So you may say it in Hebrew and the other guy may say it in English--but why couldn't you do it together? And have the one person--the rabbi--he conducted the service, and it worked out beautifully; you know, we've had no problem whatsoever.

JH:What were the main compromises?

BF:Oh, one o' the things was not as much Hebrew--I mean, have some Hebrew, also, going with the English. In fact, my wife and I contributed a little book--[goes to find book]. For people who are not Jewish or who don't know how to speak Hebrew--easier to say the prayers. Now, my wife and I, we had that printed up in a booklet--and it's at the syna--they don't use it very often; but--I use it, and my wife uses it, and some o' the other--but not many of 'em.

JH:Somebody said that they thought the prayer books were Reform prayer books.

BF:Well, they are; but--this particular part is where you have the Hebrew. So you take this little book and you put it with it, and as they say this is the--what prayer to read, you would open it up, and there is--in phonetics, so you could go along--you'd follow; because, once you begin to read the phonetics and you begin to learn how to say the words--and pronounce the wor--you can do pretty well with it, see what I mean? And this is--my wife and I, we gave that to the community as part of a dedication for my parents. It's a little blue book--it's a little--it's a very thin book. Yeah, I'll see if I can get you one--and I'll be happy to give it to you.

JH:Somebody said that another sort of compromise--I guess maybe it was Annette Federow--was that they were not used to having music, and that the Reform had always had music; and they accepted that that was--

BF:Sure. See, these are the things that we went through, and we said, "Now, this is what--" and, you know, and it's worked out! What's wrong with that? There's nothin' wrong with--[whether] you have music. I music is beau-

JH:Has anyone felt alienated, do you think?

BF:No! No--not that I know of; they've never said so. I don't know of anyone--. And, like I say, with the yarmulke--those things are so simple--you know--what does it mean? It just means this is tradition to me--wasn't tradition to them. So, if you don't wanta wear a yarmulke, you don't have to wear it!

JH:Well, have you noticed over the years either the Orthodox dropping traditions or--?

BF:No, I think it's just the reverse. I think--actually, I think I see most [sic] of 'em wearin' yarmulkes than ever.

JH:Of Reform, you mean?

BF:Of the Reform, uh huh. There's not that many of the, so-called, Reform anymore

JH:And the talis?

BF:The talis--the only that they use it really is during the holidays. Because sometimes you'll be called up to the altar, and you should have a talis. That's the only time. And any time they call you up to the altar, you have to put a talis on, and you should put a talis on. Now, I'll be very honest with you, and I have never gone through the list of the members of our congregation--. I would say most of the congregation have a leaning towards the Orthodox as much as the Reform--I think. But not because of the language part--but I just think that the tradition sticks a little bit closer to the Orthodox than it does to the Reform. Now, I could be wrong; that's just an opinion.

Tape II, Side 1
JH:[What about] the proportion of Reform to Orthodox? Has that kept equal?

BF:Equal--about equal; I would say equal. I'll be very honest with you, if you were counting them, I would prob'ly say there was more- today are more Orthodox. But the Orthodox, see, are not as Orthodox as if you went to St. Louis--going to a synagogue there. See, that's what I'm tryin' to make out. See what I mean? We have the same kind of a service, but in St. Louis you'd have it all in Hebrew practically. Well, here you don't; you'll have--maybe half, or maybe a third.

JH:Do you ever get comments from visitors from places like that?

BF:No, I'll very honest with you, if we get any comments--mostly that they like our congregation; they like the way they do it. Because- you know--we've changed a lot. I'm sure you've changed a lot over the years. And people--younger people--they'd rather have it in English--I'll be very honest with you. Very, very much so.

JH:How much would you say Jewish social life in Springfield has been organized around the synagogue?

BF:Well, this is one o' the reasons why we wanta build a new temple- is because we--. It's the most important thing, naturally, as far as having any kind of an affair--either weddings or bar mitzvahs or so on: it's very important that we have that; and when we have a guest speaker or a--not too long ago we had a banquet--a dinner--for members of our--and that was all around it. But as far as our social life is concerned, not a lot. You mean as far as they go around together? Is that what you're talkin' about? People who join in their social life, but maybe not around the synagogue? In other words, do the Jews meet socially? That's what I would think maybe is what you're talkin' about.

JH:Well, that's one way of looking at it; but also just how much in terms of activities that involve the entire congregation--or are actually at the synagogue?

BF:How many participate, you mean?

JH:Or how much do you think that's--

BF:Well, it helps a great deal, I think; because--like I say, just recently we had some guests here--musicians--musical people, and we had a tremendous turnout. And we had dinner and then we had--and I thought we had a good turnout. I don't know what percentage; I would say over half the community was there. In fact, some people who I had not seen in quite a long time, unless it'd be during the holidays. So those things are important, and that's the thing is what I was just gonna say--is because this is why we wanta build a new synagogue. Because we feel the one we have now is kinda antiquated; it's not a very pretty building; it's not--I don't know--it doesn't seem like it's the place that you could--you know--enjoy your social life, I guess; I don't know. But we don't have as much social things going on there as we should. This has always been my complaint, anyway. Because everything--they try to wrap it around holidays--or some kind of a holiday or something--well, but, now, this last thing was not. But why not have--every month--have something going on? Now, years ago, we used to do that: we'd have "Las Vegas night"--and we'd have--we'd have a bingo night; we'd have a--just a social event, or maybe we'd have a musician come in. We had Dr. Tarrasch--Ena's husband--he was a fine musician--one o' the best, you know; and he would play the piano. And then we used to have the plays; we don't have the plays because we don't have the players that--we used to have an organization which is gone.

JH:Is this before the Community Center was built--or after?

BF:No, it 'as built--no--because of the stage; when we had the stage, that's when they decided to have this [at all].

JH:What about before that?

BF:No.

JH:I've heard that there used to be dinners in people's houses.

BF:Well, but see that's--how many could you have?

JH:Like, well, with the large ones. Well, they would have two houses or something?

BF:I don't--well, maybe they'd go from one house to another--like a certain night: you know, like a New Year's Eve, they'd have the entrees at one house and so on. I don't recall that being a Jewish affair. Maybe the rabbi would have something; I don't recall very much of that going on.

JH:What about something called Brotherhood? Were you involved in that?

BF:No, I know the organization. I never was interested in that. To me it was always a little bit more--I thought--older people; at the time I was a young guy. [Chuckling] I'm older now; maybe I could get involved, but--they don't have that I don't believe; they might, but I doubt it.

JH:I was talking a bit before about observance. Do you think there's been a change in the way bar mitzvahs are celebrated?

BF:No, I think they were the same way. Mostly you'll see--you know, you read a passage--it's according to your birthday--a certain passage out of the Torah. And I would say today there's not a lotta difference. O' course [chuckles], some people do it better than others, because they can afford maybe something a little bit nicer, as far as a dinner afterwards; but I've never seen anything that has not been good, and we've always enjoyed that. I don't really see any difference, quite honestly. I don't really--in the bas mitzvah or the bar mitzvah, you know.

JH:Did people from both congregations--

BF:Oh, yeah--I mean, even in the old days.

JH:In the old days--

BF:They all came, because--it's one little community, and when you're talkin' about a hundred members, there's not that many, see.

JH:What about bas mitzvahs? Did people from both Reform and--did they both have their daughters--?

BF:Well, not all of 'em, but a lot of 'em. I think most of them today and in the last--I don't know how many years--but it's been that way; and my daughters both had a bas mitzvah. And--you know--this goes back: my daughters--one of 'em's forty-two and one of 'em is thirty four--so that goes back a long time. But that had nothin' to do with Orthodox or Reform, no. Because that's an honor that you're proud of; it's your children, and you want everybody to be there. You know what I mean?

JH:I know about that. I was just asking because I know that in some Reform congregations they don't even bar mitzvahs let alone bas mitzvahs, so--

BF:Well, it could be, but I think of those newer, more modern ways--I think that--I think it's changed a great deal; I really do.

JH:What about confirmations? Did most people--

BF:There are confirmations, but I think that's mostly where you have huge--congregations--where they can take ten of 'em--or twenty of 'em, or whatever--and have some kind of a confirmation from the schools--from the Sunday school.

JH:You've had them here, though, right?

BF:Well--yeah, I think that's only--when they have confirmations here -is because they don't really--cannot maybe--can't get their--can't do the ceremony--you know what I mean? Some people--and there's not many o' that. I don't really recall too many confirmations in Springfield today. But, you know, it's something--you have to learn it; like I say, it takes a couple o' years.

JH:When you were growing up, do you remember any?

BF:We had confirmations--a lot of them. Because, see, we didn't have the power that they do today, as far as learning; they had someone that teaches--on the Orthodox, because we didn't have permanent rabbi. They did--we didn't. But again theirs was mostly in English.

JH:Was it mostly Reform people who had confirmations--at the time?

BF:I would think so. The only thing--I will tell you this: who do you think helped us mostly with our, either or bar mitzvah or bas mitzvah--was people like Izzie: he would teach 'em. See, somebody of the old-timers could get together with 'em on a night and teach 'em their--the alphabet--teach 'em the different parts of your ceremony.

JH:Well, now, when Nathan Karchmer was elected, were there a lotta people from the congregation who worked on his campaign--or any- that you know of?

BF:Oh, I think maybe under--underneath it all, I'm sure we all were. Because--it's just like anything else: you're so damn proud that this man would be--you know--of a town of--I guess, we prob'ly had maybe a hundred and fifty Jews in the town--you know. And here's a man who's gonna be the head o' the--the mayor of the town! That was pretty--that's pretty damn nice. He had to have a good reputation to have that kind of a job, and he beat out a man who had already been the sheriff of the town--and that was the man he ran against--and he beat him. So we thought that was pretty damn nice, you know. And here again--I think--proves about the point about anti--whatever--wasn't as bad here, even though, you know, down here in southern--in Arkansas--I mean, in southern Missouri or--it's supposed to be very anti anything, but--.

JH:So did you feel that his religion played a part in the election at all?

BF:No.

JH:What about political issues at the time?

BF:You mean as far as he's concerned? None.

JH:None?

BF:No. Huh unh. There's never been anything--no; no way.

JH:How active would you say Jews have been in Springfield politically?

BF:Well--I'm just tryin' to think of any who even ran for office at the time, and I'm just not thinkin'--I know there's somebody; I'm just tryin' to think of who it would 'a been outside o' Nathan. I'll be very honest with you, I can't give you answer to it, because I can't recall anybody who participated in any election--even for--you know--for precincts or districts. There may have been, but I don't recall any--I really don't; I can't tell you anything about that.

JH:You think there's a reason for that?

BF:Oh, I don't think--. I'm not sayin' that Jews don't want to participate; I think they like to participate behind the scenes. Whether it--maybe that's a complex; I don't know. I can't tell you why, because I'm not qualified. You know, the attorneys here in town--there has been several--maybe could have run, but I don't recall any of 'em, which--we had one who died recently--Billy Karchmer--that was Nathan's son; and he would have prob'ly been the best qualified to run, but--he never did. I think it's because they have a good practice and they don't need that--that [laughs] headache--of bein' a politician. Now, behind the scenes maybe they were active; I don't recall any of 'em.

JH:Well, do you think that is possibly typical in Springfield--that--

BF:They didn't want get involved?

JH:Well, they wanted to keep a low profile maybe.

BF:It could be. Now, it could very well be. I don't know that--I'm tryin' to think of maybe a presidential election where maybe somebody would make a speech; but I don't even recall that. I'm just tryin' to think of some o' the people that were involved, and I don't recall.

JH:Do you have any sense whether--

BF:They're Republicans or Democrats?

JH:Yeah.

BF:I knew you was gonna ask me that one. [Laughter.] I think overall- now, if I get into this, you're gonna say I'm prejudiced about some--I think some people who in the affluent--and I'm talkin' about attorneys and--people who have money--I'm talkin' about big money; they do have a tendency, I think, to go Republican. But I don't think that's because they're Jewish, but I think it's because they're in that category. Because I think affluent people will have a tendency to stick with the Republicans--[chuckles]--where the so-called workers [will] go the Democratic way. But I've voted Republican a couple times in my lifetime, you know--but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm a Republican or a Democrat: I really vote for the man--I'm bein' very honest with you. You know, it's just like the last election: they're both good men, but I wanted a change, because I think a change was necessary. But I go that route; I analyze it pretty closely. And I'm a thinker, quite honestly; I'm not a' action person, but I do think a lot.

JH:But do you think that the congregation has leaned one way or another?

BF:No, I don't think so. I'll tell you, the only time I think possibly the congregation may have at one time was Roosevelt. Roosevelt was- that's way before your time, I think. All Jews at that time were Roosevelt people.

JH:He got attacked because he had a lot of support, yeah.

BF:Right. So, that's the only time I can recall.

JH:Do you remember anti-Semitic incidents in town?

BF:Only a couple times where somebody has thrown a rock through the temple; and I think several times we've had phone calls. I couldn't tell you too much about it, 'cause I'm not the one who took the calls or knew any--except that he would say--especially during holidays -they'd say, "Well, now, we're going to be kind of watching for cars maybe to come by and [they'll] throw rocks" or something. I don't think it ever happened, but we had phone calls--I didn't take 'em, somebody else would--we had phone calls that they were gonna throw rocks or they'ere gonna cause problems, but--never. And that's not been too long ago, either; I would say two or three years ago.

JH:Do you remember a cross being burned in the '30s in front of the synagogue?

BF:I don't. It could 'a been; I don't remember that at all. But, you know, there was one time there, you know, where they hung a black person on the square--you know. But, see, those were the--

JH:Were people still talking about that when you small?

BF:Yes. I remember that; that's why I remembered it so well. Because I don't remember seeing it--

JH:You couldn't have--yeah.

BF:No, but it was just a matter of they say it happened. And, see, the square was built differently then: the square had a pie in the middle, which--in other words, you could walk in the middle of the square; and there was a big pole there, I think--that's for directional things or something--and this is where I understand--and they hung this man. But let me tell you, there is a lot of pre--when you get down in--you get down towards the south, you get into troubled areas; and, you know, that's where they had a lotta this--I don't what the name of their group is, but they're pretty anti-black, anti Jew, anti--

JH:The Klan.

BF:The Klan. But besides the Klan I think there's another group, too. And of course, it--that happens everywhere--I guess; I don't know.

JH:Did--?

BF:We've never had a problem.

JH:But was there maybe a sense of threat from that?

BF:You mean, from the hanging of the black person? I don't think there was that many Jews here at the time. I don't remember--I'll be honest--and I wasn't even--except I just remember somebody tellin' me about it.

JH:But not by the time you were growing up. You just heard about it.

BF:That's right.

JH:But you didn't feel like this--

BF:That they were threatening to us in a way? No, I don't think I've ever--I don't really believe that. You know, to be honest with you, all the Jewish fellas that--[I don't know] about girls at the time- but anyone who wanted to get in a fraternity could get in; never had a problem because he was Jewish. We had fraternities in the high school, and, o' course, in the college and all. That didn't mean anything--I don't believe--ever.

JH:Do you think the fact that Jews here are a minority has made it a closer-knit community?

BF:Well, I think Jews--anywhere--anywhere--are close, from the standpoint of anti--something. I think that's always been--that's why they stick together--you know; that's just the way the things are, you know--when it comes to that kind of a thing. One Jew doesn't want the other Jew to be hurt, and they'll do almost anything within reason to see that it's not. And maybe here again--you 'ere talkin' about low profile--it may be that a low profile--we don't wanta cause any problem. That's maybe what a lot of 'em think: "We don't wanta cause a problem." I don't say that they're scared. But they don't wanta cause a problem, because, it may not be him that gets hurt--or myself--but the guy up the street--you know. Maybe they would do something to him; I don't know. But that's how I feel about almost all Jews--and that's why Jews--you know, they call 'em "ghettoes" or they call them "areas"--. Now, I don't know if you've been to St. Louis; now, years ago St. Louis--there 'as only certain areas where they lived--in [what] they called the "Twelfth District." And my grandmother and my other--on both sides--and they all--all the Jews lived there, because they had all the kosher- the rabbis, the butcher shops were all kosher; they lived in a certain area, see what I mean? Now--I don't know if you're familiar with St. Louis--there's certain areas that they may not want Jews. Now, they may not say, "No Jews allowed," but I imagine maybe possibilities of them buyin' property in that area--would may be more difficult. But, see, here, that doesn't--I can live here, I can live on the north side, I can live anywhere. My son lives in Cooper Estates--considered--nice--. We've had no problems in that kind of a situation.

JH:The Jewish population has been more dispersed here, then.

BF:That's right; they live in every part of town.

JH:Has that, over the years, made it harder, do you think, to be a community?

BF:Huh uh. No, I don't think so--'cause they're not that far apart, you know; and after all the--'cause that's the big argument right about building the temple--where we're at down there, because of the parking and all that; they wanta build one over here. And, you know, it's a half a million dollar deal, so--it's kinda hard to see if we're gonna come up with that kind o' deal.

JH:What historical events do you think affected the Jewish community here?

BF:Well, outside o' the Holocaust--is that what you mean--oh, you mean here in town?

JH:Well--yeah.

BF:The Holocaust was prob'ly--because, you know, there--for years- several years--I'm not recalling how many--there used to be a Holocaust--but it was done in a Christian church.

JH:What, a memorial?

BF:Uh huh. And they did--I don't think we've done it in the last two or three years. But I know the South Street Christian Church did it; Christ--the Episcopal Church had a service one year--it's on the anniversary of the Holocaust--you know, there's a certain day that we have an anniversary. And, there 'as see, some place else we had it. Been three or four years that I know of that we had 'em--in the Christian churches--concerning the Holocaust--memorial services. And we had--usually--a very good turnout--from both communities -you know, the Christians and the Jews, both. And we always--by the way--always had a good relationship with the Catholic Church. The only one--I won't say that--now, the new ar--I guess he's a bishop--I don't know who he is right now. Now, he's about the only that I think--and he's been here about two years now, maybe three- never has been to one of our services--which is unusual, 'cause, you know, they--. Now, Bishop Law--Bernard Law--was a friend o' mine. Bernard Law was a wonderful person--a wonderful man. And once I sat on the dedication of St. John's Hospital over here, and I had to make a speech, and almost all o' the other ones were ministers or priests who'd get up--; and then I thought, "Well, gee, here's little old me, and I'm not even a speaker--you know, I took debate in school, you know--. And I talked to him about it before, and he said, "Look," he said, "You're gonna do as good a job as anybody, 'cause you're gonna speak from the heart, and sometimes some o' these fellas may not, you know. They may just say it because this is what they're supposed to say." He was just very nice to me.

JH:Speak to whom?

BF:To the people who came here to celebrate this dedication of the hospital. In fact, I have a picture of that particular scene, I think. [Leaves room and returns with photograph of dedication in St. John's Hospital chapel. Shows me photo of speakers seated in hospital chapel at dedication.] And then after I gave my little talk, why, I looked over and he went [makes "okay" sign and nods]--like you did a good job, you know. Made me feel good. So then we became good friends, in the sense that when I'd see him we would talk for a little bit. And one time my mother-in-law--

JH:Was that in the '50s?

BF:Oh, I think it may be a little later than that. I don't remember when they did that.

JH:The dedication. Well, it was built in the '50s, but maybe it wasn't dedicated until--

BF:Yeah, but see--no, it wasn't dedicated right away; uh huh. Uh huh. But one time my mother-in-law was here and she became ill. And anyway, we had to take her to the doctor, and we were sitting in the waiting room--and Bishop Law came in. And he sat down, and she became quite irritable--I think, because waiting so long; he went over to talk to her.

JH:Well, if it was in the '60s--do you remember the ecumenical movement?

BF:Yeah, I remember that; I don't remember exactly what years it was, but I do remember that. You know, I will say one thing about the Catholics--and one o' my--and I hate to say that one o' my best friends is Catholic; that's like someone sayin' one o' my friends is a Jew. But they are very dedicated people, and I admire them for it- it's just like the Ferrises are very dedicated to their religion. Sometimes I don't know whether the Jews are that way; the Jews are that way because maybe they feel like they've been "stamped" [makes stamping gesture]--pihu!--like this, you know? Where you can--you know--you can change if you want to; I don't know. But I've always felt I've always admired the Catholic people--because they are extremely dedicated people; and I think it's a wonderful--a wonderful thing for them. And, like I say, I admire them. And this man who--touched my life a very little--it made me feel good. I cry about it, because--it was important to me.

JH:Do you remember any kind of outreach--like people talking to other -? Well, what did you talk about at the dedication?

BF:Well, we were dedicated about the idea of having people who can help in your life, you know; we have someplace that you can go and be served--for health purposes--it makes no difference about your religion; and this is what I brought up, because that was important to me, I guess. You know, you was talkin' about, did you ever have problems with somebody saying, "We don't want you in here"--you know; and I think that that made me feel good, because it's a place we could go--if there was a problem. If we're ill, we can always feel like we can come over here to St. John's--and I think it was just something kinda dedicated. I don't know how I even got--but they called me up one time, and [laughing] wanted to know if I'd do it. I said, "Okay"-- sometimes I do things maybe I feel bad about; but I'm glad I did it now. 'Cause I'll never forget it: that's important to me, that picture. And I'm so glad that he's done so well. We keep thinkin' he's gonna be over in the--you know--I don't know, a pope--maybe not a pope, but possibly work over there.

JH:Do you remember anybody speaking from the congregation to Christian groups about Judaism?

BF:Yes. Now, the rabbis used to do that; and I think that--let's see, who else may have done that? I'm not too sure--I can't tell you for sure. But I do feel that we've had some--. I'll tell you another congregation, which is over on National near the college--it's kind of a buff-colored brick. Okay, now, the reason why I say this is because they had a minister who went--I think he's in Texas now- and he used to talk on the radio, as well, you know, as with the congregation--and my wife could tell his name. Very handsome man; he was on tv. And I can't remember his name--but anyway, he used to come, and he used to bring some of his members of his congregations to our temple--you know--and talk; and then we would send somebody over there to talk. But I don't recall who they were. So we've exchanged--I think Christ--the Episcopal Church, like I say, a couple times. I'm not too sure about the South Street Christian Church; I'm not too sure. Or the one out on the highway there; I guess that's [what] that is. But--some, anyway.

JH:Can you think of other--well, these are examples, and also those dinners would have been examples--other ways in which--formal or informal events that connected the Jewish community to the larger Springfield community.

BF:Well, now, I will tell you--now, we used to have--in fact, we're gonna try to--if we ever get this new thing built--to have what they call a "dinner open to the public." Now, that used to be very famous, and people used to ask, "When are gonna have your next dinner?" And they would--people would come, and we 'ould have, like, chicken soup--you know, an order for chicken soup--and things that are- not--I shouldn't say Jewish--; and most o' this was home-cooking: these were by the members of the congregation who cooked the--it's not like you had a caterer to do it, you know. And that was very important, and then all of a sudden it--. Here again, Fanny Arbeitman used to do that--she used to help in that; but, you know, as they get older they don't want to do that. Or Mrs. Sass did that, you know--and my wife. But it just seemed like the older people, naturally, as they get older, they don't wanta get involved in it- because they just can't do it physically. Now, you know, like I say, we had this thing not too long ago, and there was a--very good comments about it; and one o' the people who did the cooking or prepared, supposedly, the food--now, she's Jewish--and I hate to tell you, but I can't think of her name. And everybody had a good time; it was open to the public. And then we had--oh, something else that I'm just tryin' to think of--it just came to my head--; but several times we've exchanged--viewpoints of--what our beliefs are, and discussions of it, I guess. But never strong--especially from the Baptist side. I don't know why that would be; but--it's one o' those things.

JH:What about involvement in civic and cultural life?

BF:Well, let's see--I can't tell you too much about it. I'll tell you, here again, you may talk to someone who--. We've never had a chance, because we--you know, we worked, and we've never been [involved- ]. Years ago, my wife--she used to go the Red Cross; she does work over at the hospital--she volunteers--every week she works over at the hospital--over here at Cox. She's over there every Monday or Tuesday; she works over there in the library. But, now, you know, over at St. [John's]--the Catholic hospital--they have a group of women who work every week over there. They've been over there- for years they've been doing that. But that's the only thing I can think of offhand. And sometimes when they have these drives for food during the holiday--Christmas or something--the kids take care o' that part of it; they get food for them and all that.

JH:Do you think the Civil Rights Movement of the '60s had an effect on the congregation?

BF:I really don't think so. I don't think we've--I really don't think so at all.

JH:What about the Zionist movement?

BF:No, I don't know anything about it--I really don't. I mean, I've read about it, but--I'm not informed, and I don't think we've had--. I know years ago they used to send a certain amount o' money to--I'm just tryin' to think what that was for; but I've never been involved in that. I've never been to Israel, and maybe sometime I'd like to go, but that is not--to me--the most important thing: that's me talking. Like I say, these things are tellin' you are my own opinions, and maybe you'd frown on 'em, but--. I mean, I'd like to go for the historical part--would be nice; but I'm not really involved in that, and I'm not really--. I'm interested in the people here--you know. This has been more important to me--than anything else. Because- I'm one o' the few people who have stayed here. When you start talkin' to all these people--and how many years that they've been here, outside o' the Lotvens and myself--I've been here longer than any of 'em--that are left--; you know, that have died off. 'Cause like I say, I've been here almost sixty-five years--sixty-nine years: I'll be seventy in May--and all my life I've spent right here. So there're not many who have done that. So--you know--I'm interested in my little community.

JH:Do you remember much about some of the--well, when you were growing up--some of the older members of the community--at that point?

BF:I remember some of them, yes; and, here again, I remember Nathan- because he used to go around--when we had our services, which were in Hebrew, he used to go around--he was a wonderful--and he'd go around and be sure you got the right place in the book. See? And he's just that kind of a guy. He'd say, "You should be on this page over here"--you know--because we couldn't follow it in Hebrew; we had to wait till they'd say, "Page 9, D2"--you know--and then have it in the English--and then he'd read it in the English--you know, they translate it in the book. But when they were doin' it in Hebrew, maybe he would be reading Hebrew for five minutes--maybe not five minutes--but a certain amount o' time, and you wouldn't know what they were talkin' about, 'cause I didn't understand Hebrew. So he would go around--he would help people. And his father was a very big member of the community; he was--his old man was a wonderful person. And he had a brother who died--not young; but he was not too old. Very wonderful family.

JH:Who were the other important families?

BF:Lurie--Hal's dad--was a very important member of the community. In fact, my dad worked for his father--and he 'as also in the garment industry. But he worked for this Oberman Company originally. Then he opened up his own factory over there, you see--here in Springfield. And then--in fact, they had Sidney, which was Hal's brother--older brother; he ran--he used to be the salesman: he would go on the road and sell that man's merchandise--his dad's merchandise, you know. Or they'd give orders; then they'd make 'em. So--he was a very important member of the community, too. He was a charac--he was rough and gruff, but he was a great person. And everybody liked him. He was just--and he loved children; he loved children. You know, he had three boys--you know. And he used to tease 'em a lot. You know, they'd come into services and--during intermission or the service was over--he'd come and always shake hands with the children; and a wonderful person. We had--we had some good members, and I'm, you know, very proud o' that fact. Of course, the Lotvens are in a category by themselves.

JH:Do you remember the father?

BF:Oh, sure, his father, and he used to--really he'd--also would conduct the services; he was just like the rabbi--you see. And, now, I don't think you ever met their other brother, have you? Jake?

JH:Jake; no.

BF:Now, Jake will look--his father looked like Jake would: a little bit short--a little bit--o' course, they're all short and a little bit heavy-set. But they're just a wonderful family. It's hard to believe -then, o' course, you know, they got the two girls--you know, those sisters. And, in fact, when Regina came home from the war--you know, she came over here--I took care of her; we used to go out for lunch together or something--'cause her husband wasn't back yet- Hymie wasn't back yet, you see--from overseas. And so, I would go and visit with her, because I knew that she didn't know very many people, and--so we'd go out to have a lunch together or visit--just talk to each other; I was just crazy about her. And, of course, she could speak English, but not fluently like she does today. She is a very smart person, you know: very intelligent. And I just love 'em all; they're just wonderful people, and they've been very nice to my wife and I--and our relationship--: New Year's Eve, sometimes we'd have a party or they 'ould have a party, and she 'ould have some of our friends--you know, the Jewish people--a lot of 'em were not Jewish, all of 'em. But our relationship has been extremely close. I worked for Hymie; he taught me how to sell shoes. And so--the relationship has just been wonderful. That's why I say that--the community is small, but the members--that I know--we've always had a good time together. Now, we don't live together in the sense that they'd come over, knock on the door, and say, "Hey, how are you?"--you know--and things like that; but it's just the idea that we would invite each other over--and have dinner together--or something like that. It's just that kind o'--. And, you know, for a while we went--I think I told you--went to California--thought about movin' to California--after I lost my business. And whaddaya think they--? They had us over for dinner, and they had people over there--because it was like a farewell dinner. They were so nice- you know--and just wonderful people. And maybe just the people in Springfield are like that--the Jewish people. Now, there's a lotta new people who I do not really know too well--you know; and I cannot tell you too much about 'em. But I just know that the ones that are left--like I say, Hyman and them--are just very--just like a brother--to me. And I just love--love 'em--just--couldn't love 'em any more than I would love my own brother. And that's the truth.

JH:Well, now, I know that Regina and Gytel--I know how they came here. There are several other people who were more or less refugees, though, weren't there?

BF:Who came here?

JH:Yeah.

BF:Some left--. Now, actually--oh, I'm tryin' to think of some who maybe--there was a Rosenbaum; have you met Rosenbaum yet?

JH:No.

BF:Well, there's two brothers; they--and, o' course, Ena--you know, she's from, really, the Old Country--came over here--they met and went to--somehow; she went through terrible things--she had lots o' horrible things happen to her. But this Rosenbaum--he has a jewelry store on the square--small jewelry store--I don't know what it's called--right next to, well, it used be a theater--there. That's--it's two brothers. Kinda strange, in the sense they have very little social life as far as the Jewish commun--they used to have a lotta social life, then they quit. Their mother died, and they came from the Old Country, and I think got reparations, just like Arthur Rosen--and I think then they came up with quite a bit o' dough--in reparations, you know, from the war. See, some people who lost their businesses over there--like Arthur Rosen--the Germans had to pay him a certain amount o'