IL=Isadore Lotven
GL=Gytel Lotven
JH=Julie Henigan

Tape I, Side 1
JH:Okay. We didn't really talk too much about religious education here in Springfield. I wondered what you could tell me about that--when you first arrived.

IL:Well, they always had a school on a Sunday--a Hebrew school. 'Course, once a week you don't get too much, but they always did have a Hebrew school here, as long I remember. In fact, we got a picture in the temple of when the Hebrew school was first started here back in 1893. They had about eight students. And one of 'em was Mr. Ed Herman--he's on it. So they always had a Sunday school here--a Hebrew school.

JH:Were there two separate ones?

IL:No. There was one; because we didn't have one; we had a part-time- the Orthodox had--part-time. But usually they had a combination- of both--those who wished to send their children to the Hebrew school.

JH:Where was it held?

IL:It was held in a church--which was located on the corner of Olive and Jefferson. But now it's right behind the Woodruff Building. There used to be a church, and then they built a garage there; but that used to be a church. Then, when they built the temple, in 1933, they moved it to the temple. In the back room.

JH:I think it was Hal Lurie thought that there was an extra room in the Landers Building--next to where the Shaare Zedick held services.

IL:It's not in the--he's wrong; it's on Walnut Street. You know where the Landers Theater is?

JH:Right, not the Landers Building, but the building next to the--

IL:It's the old--what's the organization--called--?

GL:Mason.

IL:Mason--not the Masons; it was another name. Anyhow, that was the building there, and we had it on the second floor. That's where the Orthodox had it, yes; this is true.

JH:He thought he remembered two different rooms and that there was one room that had a lot of books in it, and that's where Sunday school was.

IL:No. No, that didn't belong to us. But we didn't have no Sunday school in the Orthodox; we had the Hebrew lessons sometimes in the afternoon. But didn't have--'cause we didn't have a full-time rabbi in our organization. What we did have was a person who was both a rabbi and they conducted services; but ever since he died in 1933- Mr. Littman--. Now, his grandson is the one that's head of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. David Littman.

JH:Right. Was Mr. Littman a shohet?

IL:A shohet, too; right. He came here in nineteen hundred and twenty three. And he died in 1933. Here in Springfield. That's the only time we had--but he was not a teacher, though. We did have some teachers off and on.

JH:And they would teach in the afternoons?

IL:Sometimes after school. Those that wanted to attend. They did have that, but there wasn't too many attended at that time. Of course, it was a small congregation; we only had about thirty members. And there wasn't too many young children then--see. But when they had built that building--that temple--in 1933, that's when they moved everything behind there at the temple, and had it every Sunday. And those that wanted to come, of course, could come; those that didn't want to, it was--you can't force him.

JH:And did both Orthodox and Reform members volunteer for that?

IL:Yes. They definitely volunteered. And there wasn't too many in the Orthodox; mostly the Reform there. Because it was a small group--a very small group. It really didn't start to grow until they built the building in '33; then it was still small. Then, of course, when Rabbi Jacob came--I was in the army when he came, but I think he came in 1943, if I'm not mistaken, 'cause I left in 1942. And that's when they really established the Hebrew school on Sundays from both sides.

JH:For both the congre--

IL:For the school--for the children. We didn't have at that time--[o' course] we had very few Orthodox left--I mean, children left. Most of 'em--younger ones--would go into that side, you know. But some of 'em--a lot of 'em belonged to both places--see.

JH:The parents and the children--belonged to both?

IL:Yeah, the parents and the children belonged to it. Because--actually, we got together in nineteen hundred and forty-six; that's when we joined--both congregations joined as one congregation. But we still had separate services. See. Until they built the annex, which is in 1954. See: that big hall. And then we had a little small room there to have services for us. Finally--I think it was not too long ago- about seven or eight years ago--maybe longer--when Rabbi David Zucker was here; he's the one that really got us together on one service--during the whole year and the holidays. See.

JH:Did the unification happen first with the Friday night services, and then with the holidays?

IL:That's right. The consolidation was first--in 1946--I'm sure it's '46. But then in 1954 when we built the building, we had a room for us, 'cause they still had a few people who didn't want to attend the Reform services. And we had our services at seven-thirty, and they had the Reform at eight o'clock. Therefore, those who wished to go to theirs afterward, they could. And some children did go there, and some grownups. But on the holidays--Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah--we had our service in the hallway--in the hall. We had a person come from different places--some from Chicago, and some from St. Louis--to conduct services for that--holidays.

JH:Did you first try to have that in the small room on holidays?

IL:No, on the holidays we used to do it in the big room, because it wasn't big enough for everybody who'd come on the holidays--even for our side. We had quite a few people come. Then--but finally- Gyt, do you remember when Rabbi Zucker came here? He was here about five years, wasn't he?
GL:Yeah, I'd say--one, two, four: that's four years. Four years. '84 to '89.

IL:Somethin' like that. See, the reason it happened was this: the Reform came up with a new book for the holidays--which is more of a Conservative type of a book--prayer book.

JH:Just for the holidays?

IL:For the holidays only. And that's when we decided to join it, because it was very little different between both--of the books. And since we had that Rabbi Zucker--which was one o' the finest rabbis we ever had--he stayed here, I think, five years, and then he went to Colorado. And he's the one that suggested to get together even on the high holidays.

JH:So you had already gotten together on the regular services.

IL:That's right.

JH:Do you know when that happened--on the regular services together?

IL:Oh, you mean, on Friday night services?

JH:Yes.

IL:Well, we started that--about nineteen--Rabbi Wucher was here at that time. Let's see, my daughter got married in seventy--'73 was Smith. I would say we started to get services together on the Friday nights, I'd say, about 1970. After we started having one service on Friday night. 'Cause that's about the time they came out with another--also another--new prayer book. At that time. So we--they couldn't get enough on their side and we couldn't get enough on the other side, and we just--to get together, see. And had to use their book--which is all right. That's what happened till about nineteen seventy--

GL:Late seventy.

IL:Look, Simone was married in '73 and Smith was here. We already had those books.

GL:No.

IL:Not--for Friday night?

GL:Not until Kaplan came. Or Zucker. No--no, it was middle seventy- [it was] '75.

IL:That's what I said--in seventy.

GL:Yeah. Middle seventy--when Wucher was here.

JH:Bernie Fetter talked about himself and--I think it was Arthur Rosen -were working on a petition to get the same prayer book, but I couldn't tell whether that was for the regular services or the holidays. Does that ring a bell? Do you remember that?

IL:Well, [laughs], I don't see--know why we just--to talk about a petition, because we never had a such a petition before, that I know of. But see, we had the board of directors, and they were the ones that took care of it. Now, who was on the board o' directors at that time, I wouldn't know; I'd have to look at--Hymie'd have to look in the books and see--on the meetings we had. But we had meetings- but there wasn't a petition--or anything like that at all. I mean, a petition didn't mean a thing.

GL:There was no petition.

IL:We were actually together--

GL:There was a general meeting. There was a general meeting--called. And Wucher was here--remember? Wucher was already--he was not a student rabbi. 'Cause he was--when he was here--was in the early seventy--he was here; I don't remember if he was a student rabbi or he was our rabbi.

JH:That prob'ly was when he returned--I would imagine. 'Cause I think he was here in the late '60s or something.

GL:Yes. It was a meeting of both the Os and the Rs, and that's where the majority voted to have one services on Saturday; but it would still be two different--for the high holiday--would be the Conservative/Orthodox and the Reform separate.
JH:On Saturday or Friday?

GL:On Friday night. Then when Zucker came, that's when we had one service for everybody.

JH:Even for the holidays.

GL:Yes. Remember, Izzie?

IL:Because the new books came out; that's why that happened, more than anything else.

GL:When Zucker came, we bought the new books for the high holiday. And we had one service in the big room--in the center. But Zucker is the one who initiated to have one service for the high holidays.

IL:And that's where we still do have it--on the high holidays we move into the community center--to have room enough for everybody. But on Friday nights, we just have the services--of course, now we got a full-time rabbi. But at that time, when we finally got together, but -it's either get together or fall apart. 'Cause, I'll tell you, the old timers died out--and the young generation have to do their own way; you know, you can't make 'em do what you did; I couldn't make my kids do what I did. It's a different world.

JH:Well, was there anybody who felt very strongly on one side or the other, and didn't wanta compromise?

IL:Oh, yes! Yes. Oh, yes--yes! We had that--on both sides--that want to get together. The old-timers from our side didn't want to go up there because it was Reform; the Reform didn't wanta come to our side because--it was too Orthodox. Oh, we had opposition, there's no question about it. But we went according to the majority.

JH:Did anybody stop coming because of it?

IL:No.

JH:No. They accepted the will of the--

IL:As far as not coming, those who didn't come before, didn't come afterward. And those who want to come, come. We have a much better attendance now than we ever had--frankly. We have much better attendance today than they ever had in the temple. When Rabbi Jacob was here, they were lucky to have five or six people on a Friday night. And today if we get twenty, twenty-five, we think- it's low--because we got much more people coming on Friday night services. Even, for example, the temple last Friday night with all the bad weather we had, we had about twenty people there. See. So, really, it's worked out for the best; there's no question about it.

JH:Going back early in the century, did you hear much about some of the founders of the Temple Israel group?

IL:Did I knew the people?

JH:Did you know them or did you--

IL:I knew them; sure, I did! The majority of 'em, I knew. When I came here is when I met--I met those people. Real well--all those people--like Marx, Herman, Levy, Wolf, Faymans--all those--. What was his name--he used to collect all the time--Freibergs. All those people: Rubensteins; I knew all the Reform group here. That was- as far as the people was concerned--there was no problem; we just had separate service--we didn't get together on the service. But as far as knowing is concerned, we never had any problems--as far as getting together is concerned; because we had here the B'nai B'rith organization, and both of 'em belonged to it--both sides.

JH:Was the Ladies' Aid--was that just the Orthodox women?

IL:No, as far as the women is concerned, both belonged to it.

JH:Did that pre-date Sisterhood.

IL:It was--as far as the Women's Aid was concerned, it was by--both sides belonged to the Women's Aid Society--the Reform and the Orthodox; it had nothin' to do with the congregation.

JH:But did Sisterhood kind of take its place?

IL:The Sisterhood took its place. They changed the name to Sisterhood instead of the Ladies' Aid Society. But my mother belonged to it. They used to have a meeting there in the back of the temple.

GL:But at the time it was named the Lady Auxiliary.

IL:Well, they called it Ladies' Aid Society first.

GL:Lady Aid Society or Lady--you know--

IL:That's what they were called.

GL:My mother-in-law told me that at that time they made it very--how would I say? They did not like people who was from Eastern Europe, for them to feel welcome to it. And they would rather stay--you know--the old German, without the Russian or Polish or whatever- you know--Hungary. And they made it kind of a--not very comfortable for them. But much later, when it became Sisterhood, that's what--where it really--. Also, I would say that when we became one congregation, after I came here, and the B'nai B'rith folded--the B'nai B'rith Women folded--and there was a new generation of people come--you know--that were in the Sisterhood who made it avail--much more pleasant for the people who were not from German descent to come into Sisterhood. And that's when we first got started--some of the descendent of Russian immigrant women--to be president. And that was--oh, late fifty, early sixty; and that's when we became more involved in Sisterhood, because they made more accessible for the people. But before that they kinda shunned the people who were here for a long time--you know, the early--1910 and so on--to come into this Lady Auxiliary; they did not like these people to come, and they accepted their membership, but they shunned them when they came to meeting. That's why most of the people who came from--were born, from Russian and Polish--or children from them--you know--they didn't come. They were not active.

IL:In other words, in plain English, socially that was not together. But since they needed membership financially, they were together.

JH:Did that change gradually, do you think?

GL:Gradually, yes. Because they ran out of leadership.

IL:It started right after the war.

GL:Yeah.

IL:When they--you see, during the war--

JH:After the Second?

IL:Second World War. Because, you see, we had here the O'Reilly Hospital--you prob'ly heard o' the O'Reilly Hospital. And we had a lotta Jewish doctors and officers and officials from O'Reilly and from Fort Wood, and they came lookin' for a congregation or a place like that. And that's how [they met]. Because there was a young rabbi here who conducted services for the Orthodox--I wasn't here; they told me that--who was a chaplain at the O'Reilly Hospital--see. But being together like that, that's what really got the whole- [unintelligible]--start--idea of gettin' together. Now, see, as the old-timers died off here and there and the young generation grew up, they just--they got together.

JH:Last time you mentioned that during the summers--I don't know when this was--but at some point during the summers, at the temple, they would close.

IL:Close. Right. That was started--

JH:When was that? Was that like in the '30s and '40s?

IL:From June until--middle of September.

JH:What years was that?

GL:When Rabbi Jacob left.

IL:Oh, that--until Rabbi Jacob came.

GL:When Rabbi Jacobs left, that's when that thing was eliminated.

JH:Then they started coming in the summer?

GL:All year long.

IL:When we got together.

JH:But he would come over to--

IL:He used to come over to us for the service on Friday night.

JH:Both at the Masonic Lodge, and then later in the small room?

IL:That's right. When they--they used to close right after Shavuot, which was--it's usually in June--until the high holidays--for about three months. So the Rabbi Jacob here, he used to come to our services on Friday night--during the summer. Then, when we got together, of course, [there wasn't any more] closing business. Because we don't close a church for the hol--just because people take a vacation, you see.

GL:God doesn't take a vacation. That was a general--all over the United States.

JH:That people would close?

GL:That the Reform temple closed for three month. Still, some of the old classical Reform temple in the United States--and there is very few left--still close for three months. But some have lay people doing it, but a lot of them close--the classical. But, as a general rule, no temple closes anymore. The Rabbi will take a month vacation, but he lines up lay people to conduct services every Friday night. So-- when they came back to more traditional--Reform--then they have all year round now. That really started with the declaration of the State of Israel. And then it really began post- when the '67 war; that's when the big change came around in the Reform movement.

JH:A sort of return to more--

IL:Well, what it is--they went to extreme. So one side went so extreme one way, and the other went extreme the other way. But eventually they figured out that doesn't work, so they got--just come in between. And even today most o' the Reform temples--even today--are much more--what do we call--traditional. See. Even in St. Louis, the old United Hebrew, which is the oldest Reform temple in St. Louis--they finally got to be more traditional--after all the years.

GL:Well, there're still two of them that are classical Reform. Well, three of them. B'nai Israel, B'nai El, and Emmanuel are still classical; and two are not. Well, one is not and one is in between.

JH:When Orthodox families first started coming here, did they try to keep all of the traditions going?

IL:When they first came here--you see, the first time they ever had services here--Orthodox services--was in 1912; that's when the Karchmer family came here, and my father came here in 1912--and then a few others came in here: there was Lebowitz and Bookman- there was approximately about twenty families--who came from Europe. They may have come from other cities, but they finally came to Springfield--because this town was growing, you see. The Karchmers came from St. Louis, for example. And that's when--the first time they had services was in 1912, at the home of--Mr. Karchmer's home. They didn't have a place to go. Then, finally more people started coming in from the--immigrants--most were immigrants from one family, you know--the families: like the Arbeitmans came down here, you know, and they brought their brother-in-laws and so on--their families; so that's when--then they organized and they got a charter in 1918. That's when they got -and then in 19--before they got the charter, that's when they moved to the Masonic Temple. See. In fact, we still got the benches from the--that they bought from the government who had sold it from a [fellow in the] building; we've still got those benches that they carried up there--upstairs. But then they--those days--they had really Orthodox services for the high holidays and for Friday nights. See. But as the older ones died off and the younger come in, they were just kinda changing it a little bit. And that's when they started gettin' together. It only--not only did it happen here; it happened most everywhere--in small communities.

JH:But were there things that changed immediately, like observance of the Sabbath? So far I've only heard that Littmans closed on Saturdays.

IL:Well, he had a grocery store. That's the only one that closed on Saturday. But on the high holidays--a lotta the stores closed on the high holy days. Even some o' the Reform closed. I'll never forget, even--like Levy-Wolf used to close on high holy days; Fayman used to close on high holy--; Rubenstein's used to close on high holidays, you see. But eventually it got to be--little by little, of course, there're not many left--businessmen--left anyway here. You know, when I first came here, back in 1921, when my father was here, I would say there was at least forty or fifty Jewish businessmen here in town--retail stores. You don't have any left! You take Campbell Street, for example. I can give you the names--starting from College to Walnut, and a little bit past--seventy-five percent of the business was owned by the Jewish people. And they had some in the north side--on Commercial Street: [Wennerman's]--they had stores -two or three stores--on Commercial. On St. Louis Street: Marx, Herman, Netter's--you see. They were all business. But we didn't have any doctors or lawyers in town.

JH:Do you think it was hard to get in the professions? Do you think there were any barriers?

IL:I don't know; I couldn't explain it--the reason why; that's very difficult. The first attorney we had here--a Jewish attorney--was Irving Schwab. That's the first one. And the first Jewish doctor we had in Springfield is Dr. Lurie.

JH:Well, he said he didn't feel that there was any problem.

IL:Oh, there was no problem, as far as that's concerned, you see--'cause his father was a very educated man. See, his father had come from Europe--direct to Springfield, you know. And he was the head of Oberman's factory, but he was a very educated man in both--in Hebrew--very educated. You see. But, of course, his children are different; and see, he belonged to Orthodox organization. But now it's a different situation.

JH:Well, Nathan Karchmer said that he doesn't ever remember a time when women sat separately at Shaare Zedick.

IL:No, they didn't.

JH:Did women come as much as men?

IL:They came up to our services, on the high holidays-- especially, the high holidays; and we did not sit separately.

JH:But were there fewer women who would come to the Orthodox on Friday nights than would come to the Re--

IL:Well, no, Friday night, you'd hardly have any women that come--both sides, the Reform and Orthodox--very few. Once in a while, some of 'em used to come up. But on high holidays, we had women come up to the synagogue.

JH:Well, it's funny, 'cause Fannie Arbeitman--her family was Orthodox, and yet she--they were--I think her husband and she were members of both; and it sounded as though she tended to go--after the consolidation--she would tend to go the Reform services, and sometimes her husband, Ben, would go--to make sure there was a minyen--

IL:That's--some people--yeah, they went to the Reform services after we got toge--I mean, before--some of the women went; and some of the men went both places. It all depends which one you [wanta] go, you see. Of course, when Rabbi Jacob was here, that's the first time we had a full-time rabbi. And some people liked to go there, but the attendance there was less than ours. I know--at the time--because my daughter used to go there--to the Reform services. She was a little girl; she loved--she liked the Reform services, and then she came to us. I mean, she used to go both places. But Rabbi Jacob- you know--she liked to go there; she enjoyed it. But there was no--

JH:And I guess there was a sermon and there was a rabbi, and that might be attractive.

IL:So that makes a difference. But the attendance there was not what I would say overwhelming on Friday nights; they didn't have to tell me: I saw it.

GL:Well, the reason Simone went to the Reform part is she would--she started, like she was five years old, and she could not read Hebrew yet; and so she started, because, at the time they had classical Reform where very little Hebrew was read, and so she could follow in the--you know--English book. And she was the only one, because most of the rabbi--until Rabbi Zucker came--they did not particularly care to have children at the services. When Zucker came, he's the one who really tried to get all the children there; and that's why we have a better attendance today than we had when Rabbi Jacob was--because he really shunned the children. They could be there, but they could not make any noise or anything; he just--he didn't like it.

JH:Well, now, in Russia did everybody always bring the whole family?

GL:Yeah. Yes.

JH:Or in Europe, in general, like at an Orthodox--would the whole family go?

GL:Yeah. In Springfield--it depended on the rabbi. If the rabbi doesn't like to have children around--who makes noise--then the parents don't come either.

JH:But in the Old Country, what--?

IL:In the Old Country the women sit--in the Orthodox--strictly Orthodox--the women sit separate anyway.

JH:Mm hmm; but would the children come?

IL:So what happened is, the boy--if you--little children--boys, they used to go with their father, and the girls used to go with their mother--because they had to sit there in the balcony. It was kinda separate.

JH:With things like that was there any feeling of--kind of relief that you didn't have to do that here?

IL:No; no; it's not what I'd call a relief, you know, as far as that's concerned, because, it's just like everything else, you know: you do just according to the times. There 'as no such a thing as a relief- because when they came here, since there was no way--they had the one room--so they had a choice: they could sit there next to their husband, they can sit somewhere else. In fact, I was in a synagogue in St. Louis not too long ago--on Saturday, they had a wedding--they had a service on Saturday morning, they have three places you can sit: one was for men only, if they want to--there was no wall between 'em--but the chairs; one was men only, one was women only, and one was both. So you had your choice; you could sit next to your wife or you could sit next to someone else's wife; it doesn't make any difference.

JH:Where was this?

IL:In St. Louis.

JH:In St. Louis?

IL:Yes!

GL:In Lancaster Orthodox movement same way. They have [the middle] part just for the men, and then they have like a little--

IL:Platform.

GL:Not a platform--like a little wall.

IL:A division.

JH:Partition?

GL:A division; a partition--that is a little higher--like this. And you can sit the men and the women or the women alone.

IL:Even they have now--at one place in Lancaster, they have seated it together, but right in the middle there's a little partition on the seats--you see--because they have long benches, whereby you can divide: if you want to sit just [with] the women, if you want to sit [with] the men. But it's your choice; take your choice. There's no law--in the Jewish law--that says that you have to sit separate. There's no such a law--anywhere; I don't care where you look. There's a reason for it, but there's no law for it--see. The main reason is this: they claim if a person stand there and pray--and every time you have to turn around--and there's a--sittin'--a young girl with her legs crossed and dress up--up--up to her--her navel, it just might--take away his attention, you know. And when you pray, you cannot have any other thing in [your] mind; that's according to the law--of prayer. But no law says that women have to sit back- back some other place--no where--; I mean, the Orthodox, I'm talkin' about. There's no such a law that says that. It's all man-made. It's all dependent on the congregation. Now, of course--now, I heard- see, I went to a lotta congregations in St. Louis and anywhere else. There's was one place in St. Louis where they have--on this side there's the women and on this side there's the men--see. And they have kinda like a rope--between it. It's still the same place--but it makes it look like you're separate--but you're not really.

JH:Now, I know that your family kept kosher.

IL:Oh, we still do!

JH:And still do. But you seem to be one of the few families--and I was wondering if many families just immediately dropped it when they got here.

IL:No--no.

JH:Like Hal Lurie said that they never did.

IL:Well, it all depends on the individuals, now, of course; but Hal Lurie, what his father did when he first came here I really couldn't tell you, because I don't know. But, you see, we had kosher meats here in Springfield--when Rabbi Littman was here. He had a grocery store on Walnut Street--you know Walnut and Campbell? The drugstore used to be on the corner--and, how long you been in Springfield?

JH:Since 1961.

IL:Well, I think that he was still there. There used to be a drugstore right on the southwest corner of Campbell and Walnut--and right next door, there was a pool hall--there still is; that used to be a grocery store that Mr. Littman had. And he had kosher meats there.

JH:And, now, Hal Lurie didn't think it was Mr. Littman who was the shohet--

IL:Oh, yes! Definitely.

JH:But you say it definitely was.

IL:We had two of 'em.

JH:Oh, you had two!

IL:One of 'em's before Mr. Littman came. That was Rabbi--his name was Weinberg. And he had a store on Boonville Street. And he also had kosher meat. On the top o' the hill--a Mr. Weinberg. I know, because I--that's when I was--children. Then Mr. Littman--he definitely was one, because we did not have anybody else besides those two.

JH:So, was it difficult after those two stores went--

IL:No, I'll tell you why. It used to get better with times. And I'll tell you how we used to do it. When we didn't have anybody here for the kosher meats, there was a Copperman in St. Louis--and those days, railroads. And if the train--the fast train 'd leave St. Louis at twelve o'clock midnight. So what he used to do: pack the meat in ice, take it to the depot--by express--American Rail Express--and they knew what was in it; it used to get here at five o'clock in the morning. Five hours' ride; it was s'posed to be a fast train from St. Louis to Springfield--five hours. And then we knew exactly when it's gonna be here; so that morning, we went to the station, we picked it up. Now, the problem was--is keeping it: in those days there was no refrigeration. But we had ice boxes with ice. So therefore we used to take it and pack it ice and put it in the ice box -with all the ice in there--and keep it. But we used to get--every week. They couldn't hold 'em, 'cause, you know [for a week's time]- so that's how we used to get the meat. Every Friday we used to get fresh meat.

JH:This is after Littman?

IL:After Littman left--or before Littman got--even before Littman got here we used to do it.

JH:But when did he leave here?

IL:Mr. Littman came here about 1923 or 1924--exactly--but he died in 1933. And ever since then we didn't have any. Then we really got kosher meat. But then, after they got refrigeration--if you bought a refrigerator, it was no trouble. Like we have nowadays. We got two freezers: I got one in the garage--a big one full of meat right now. And then my brother got--Hymie's got another one--a big one--at his house. Besides what you got in your refrigerator--in the freezer on top. It's no trouble now at all--if people wants to do it--then there's no problem. You send away and they can you make up everything [that you]--and you can order steak, you can order shoulder roast, you can order anything you want. Same thing in chickens; we'll buy the kosher chickens by the case. We take it and we put it in the freezer; it's good for a long time. Now it's so much easier. There's no problem. If people wants to. But they get away from it, and then--. We never did get away from it--Hymie and I- we just always kept kosher, and I just--even in the army--when I was in the army--I never ate meat in the army. And they told us, they said, "In the army you [can] eat whatever you want." But as long as I didn't have to, why should I eat it? There's plenty other food without meat. The thing that--my mess sergeant--see, he knew me real well--and he used to come and say, "I got something special for you," he used to say: some eggs or--cheese--[maybe]--something or other. He knew I wouldn't--I didn't eat that stuff. The first time ever I had contact with that--was my first--at Jefferson Barracks. See, I wasn't drafted; I enlisted in the army in 19--it was in December the seventh, 1941--in January I enlisted in the army. 'Cause I had to go anyhow. I was single, I had nothing [for it], so I enlisted in the army, and I went to Jefferson Barracks. You know, being a stranger, and I go into the mess hall, and the first thing they gave me a plate to eat, you know; and I take a look, and it looked like ham to me--I could--I can see it. So I went back to the cook sergeant there, and I told him. "Don't worry," he says--"Don't worry, buddy," he says, "I'll fix you up." He took that back and he gave me some cheese and other things, and I never had--I didn't have to eat that. And I've never had any problems. No matter where I was, I never had any problem with that. 'Cause, like I said, it's up to the individual--see. Sometimes people make themselves more work- harder than they really--they should have. People don't cause other people trouble; people cause themselves trouble.

JH:Was your father here when the lynching occurred on the square?

IL:No, that came just before he came. My father came to Springfield in May, 1912; and this happened about 1911, I think it was. They were talkin' about that--but it 'as before my father came; yeah.

JH:Did that affect the Jewish community here at all?

IL:No. It was a small Jewish community; they had nothing to do with the Jewish community whatsoever. In fact, my father's business was located on Boonville Street, and at that time [this] was a black community. I would say sixty percent o' the customers my father had was black. Because, you know, at that time, they worked for Frisco. See. And we never, never had any problem with them.

JH:But was there a feeling maybe of threat--that the Jews might be a target at all?

IL:No. It was never--wasn't any difficult--and I never, as long as I lived in Springfield--. Oh, you always hear remarks, you know; that's something you never--but if you stand up for it--I never had any trouble. In fact--we were four boys, you know, and the people had to have respect for us--you know, in school. Because if they didn't like it--what we did--and if we didn't like it--you know, four of us could beat up a couple of ones. But I never had any problems--I never did have: I belonged to the Y, I played baseball and everything else with the [book], and I never had any problems.

JH:The Rubensteins were a little unusual, I think, in that they had an Orthodox background, and yet, when they came here, Shaare Zedick didn't exist; so they joined the temple.

IL:Original--the Rubensteins came to Greenfield. They came to Springfield in 1924--they bought out that store here. And their mother kept kosher for a long time--in Greenfield. But then it got almost impossible--you know--in a small community like that; and that's why they drifted away from it. But there was no finer people than the Rubensteins. Mr. Rubenstein himself--the original one- came here to open the store in Greenfield in 1893. He went to work there--. See, at that time, they built a railroad, and Greenfield had about a fifteen thousand population; and that's how come he went there. He went to work for an uncle--in Greenfield; and then he bought the uncle out. Now, of course, the family is not--the only one's left in Greenfield is Ruth--is the only one's left. And she--I saw down at--not too long ago--when Mrs. Rubenstein died--at her funeral. But I was with Rubensteins for twenty-six years, and I know the family real well. And they're really fine people; there's no finer people than the Rubensteins were: honest and sincere--and that's how they built their business. When a person bought some merchandise and came to them with a complaint, there was no arguments. "You take another suit," or "Here's your money back." They never had any difficult--never. Oh, you always have some[thing]--you know, get smart alecks, you know; but you don't pay attention to those things.

JH:Well, how was he involved in the Jewish community?

IL:Oh, yes! They were very much involved: Mr. Arthur Rubenstein was president of the congregation, and Herschel was the head of the cemetery for many, many years!

JH:What about their parents?

IL:I'm talkin' about George's parents--[who's a doctor]--George Rubenstein's father. And George himself was the treasurer of the B'nai B'rith for a long time. And I think at one time he was treasurer of the congregation. 'Cause his father was president of the congregation--Arthur Rubenstein. That's George's father.

JH:What about Joseph? The original--?

IL:Oh, Joe Rubenstein. They lived in--

JH:In Greenfield.

IL:In Greenfield; they never lived in Springfield.

JH:Yeah, but were they involved?

IL:Now, they belonged to the congregation here--to the Reform congregation; but they stayed in Greenfield. You know, when Mr. Joe Rubenstein died, the whole town closed up--for his funeral. They brought him here, of course. But that's a very fine family--there's no question in my mind about it; they were really fine people. And most of the Jewish people were nice here, and we didn't have any trouble.

JH:Do you think that the community was socially close?

IL:As far as the Jewish people is concerned?

JH:Mm hmm.

IL:Well, that's where the difference came in. The Orthodox would socialize among themselves, and the Reform would among themselves. And the reason for that is--I believe was--is because most of them came from Germany--German descent--and from the Old Country. And there's always this--[because they say]--they believe that they are more intelligent and higher grade people, you know; and they figure that the Orthodox Jews are more lower grade and not educated enough. But the young generation--there was never any difference.

JH:Well, when did that start to change, that they stayed to themselves -here?

IL:Oh, they really started to change it when they consolidated.

JH:So, not until the '40s?

IL:1940s. There was always a difference--of feeling between the Reform group and the--because in the first place, there wasn't very many Reform young people here in town--actually; not very many.

JH:Someone said though that in the '30s, when Sisterhood was going, that that made for more social interaction between the two, because people would be--

IL:Well, they were at the meetings--there--as far as the organization is concerned; but privately--see what I mean--privately, they were a little different; they did not mix--privately.

JH:But as far as the--

IL:As far as the social--

JH:The official functions.

IL:Official function.

JH:Like, there were dinners at one time--gourmet dinners and things like that.

IL:No. That didn't start till--I would say the late '50s or early '60s.

JH:Oh, okay; that's fairly recent then.

IL:I think--Gyt, when did we start the first gourmet dinner; it was in the '60s, wasn't it?

GL:Early '60s.

IL:It was after the building--after the annex was built.

Tape I, Side 2
GL:I got active when Simone was five years old. Around 19--55, '56. I came from time to time. But the gourmet dinner were started in the early seventy, after Regine was president--my sister--was president of Sisterhood. Early seventy. I was president of Sisterhood, that's in '70--that's after--well, in the early seventy, that's when it started.

JH:Well, before that point, then, was there--I guess I got the feeling from what Fannie said that Sisterhood, even in the '30s and '40s brought everybody together a lot.

GL:I don't know; [I came in 1950--]

JH:That's right; you didn't come here till--

IL:Well, I'll tell you about that. Actually, the Jewish people didn't get together socially until we built the community center. Now, during the '30s when they had the Sisterhood--what they called that time the--whatever they called it; I forget the name of it--that's when they took in everybody Jewish, because they needed members. But socially they never socialized. If they get together in a meeting, yes, you couldn't stop a member goin' to a meeting if he pays dues. But when they had a social function, you know, for example, there was very--very little of it, as far as socially is concerned. But after they built the center--in 1954--that's when we began to get together more.

JH:Do you remember before the center was built dinners in people's houses that would be inviting everybody, and they'd have two different houses--

GL:Oh, one of the projects of Sisterhood was a luncheon and card party in different houses. Okay? That's was their--a way of making money. Oh, let's see--every month they had like three hostesses- two or three hostesses--and people--they would get a group of twelve or sixteen--depends on how big the big their house was--and had lunch and played cards. And they paid so much--you know--to come. That was like a constant--you know--money-making. But really the big money-making started when this community center was built; that's when we used to have the card party brunch once a year--you know, different things; because the center was built and it was accommodating. Now, in the late thirty, I'm sure there were a few of the non-German non-Reforms who belonged to Sisterhood; but really--after the center was built--after the war--that's where all the people belonged--you know, all the people who wanted to- belonged to Sisterhood. And when the center was built--. 'Cause I remember when I first came and went to Sisterhood before the center was built, it was in the back--where the library is now--and where the offices for the religious group--that's where it was: the kitchen. And the front was--and we used to sit--you know--thirty, forty people, one next to the other; and they fixed, with one sink and one stove--one sink and one stove--they fixed a dinner--there. And they had a few shelve with glassware and so on. But after '54, that's where they could really make things happening. But still, as evening affair, it was very little. Only, once a year they had what they called the congregational dinner in--November. It was like commemorating the formation of the 1893--of the Reform movement. So they had an annual dinner, which was at the center.

JH:But that was just for members of the congregation.

GL:Yes.

JH:That wasn't a fund-raiser--was it?

GL:No. The fund-raiser were the brunches, the gourmet dinner that came in in the seventy: different things--different project.

JH:Bernie Fetter mentioned plays.

GL:Yes, also we had the Center Players, they called it. And it was very good, because some of the people that belonged to the Little Theater group were member of our congregation--like Sylvia Goldberg, who was--besides being quite an actress--was a very fine director; and we had people who moved away who were--. Lena Rosen was quite a good actress--was quite good--'cause I think she was active [young]--you know, in the Jewish theater. And so did Sylvia Goldberg; her family was raised in the Jewish theater--in St. Louis.

JH:Well, were these like plays from the Yiddish theater--[GL: No, no- no, no.]--or--they were just ordinary plays.

GL:No. Ordinary play.

IL:Just something--not too extreme; they couldn't have too many [flats], you know--sceneries. But we had a fella here who used to work for Lily Tulip.

GL:Schiffman.

IL:Howard Schiffman. And there's nothing he couldn't make. And acting--he was--he was really good.

JH:How long did those go on?

GL:Oh--about prob'ly ten years.

IL:It went for quite a while.

GL:Yeah--because, if we didn't have enough, we drew from the Little Theater people.

JH:Did they start in the mid-'50s, after the center--

GL:Oh, no--no. No, no, no.

IL:No, they started later.

GL:Let's see--his oldest son is--

IL:It started in the '60s, I think it is.

GL:His oldest son is what? It started in the early sixty, till about- seventy.

IL:See, we used to have New Year's Eve parties over there, too, at the center. We had--for quite a while--a long time--we had New Year's parties right at the center, you see. 'Course, with the old-timers gone and the younger ones got other things--places to go--it has faded away. But it just--there was always--we had an orchestra- we used to hire an orchestra and have a breakfast, you know; and we used to have a full house. We had non-members just as well as members; we had a lotta people that came to our New Year's Eve parties. But otherwise, there's things that--it's like everything else, you know. Take some o' your clubs today, like the Elks or the others, you know; they're not what they used to be anymore.

JH:What about--you were saying people would keep to themselves before--oh, say, the '50s, or after the war. What about things like weddings?

GL:Are you teaching at SMS? [Tape recorder off while I respond to this question; back on when subject of discrimination in the hiring of Jews at SMSU arises.] No, I don't think they--Ellis would not have allowed one Jew to come and teach in that--.

IL:Gyt, the first professor that came to SMS was Steve, wasn't it- Broidy?

GL:No, no.

IL:Who was the first [unintelligible]?

GL:Klein.

IL:Who?

GL:You know, Klein--the little guy who taught Spanish?

IL:Klein.

GL:Yeah, his name was Klein. He was the first one. And he taught when Mallory was there.

JH:Well, what about, you know, before the war--what about when you had weddings or bar mitzvahs or events like that? Would people come from both sides to those?

IL:They did not have the kind of function--or bar mitzvahs and bas mitzvahs those days like we have now. We had a bar mitzvah in our shul--synagogue; but the Reform never had that: all they had was confirmations. And they used to have it there on a Sunday or a- usually on the last day--last Saturday before they closed the temple; it was sometime in June--that we call the--Weeks, you know--called Shavuot--you heard the name. That was the last time they have services, and they used to have confirmation that time; but they never had bar mitzvahs or bas mitzvahs. But then, after we got together, that's when they started having it.

JH:Did any of the Orthodox have their kids confirmed instead of bar mitzvahed? Did that ever happen?

IL:No--if they wanted bar mitzvah, we had it in our Orthodox synagogue--for those who wanted it; but there was not a big deal.

JH:Didn't have a big--?

IL:Not a big deal; we just took them--Saturday--had a service Saturday and they called 'em to the Torah and--that's it, there was no big deal those days.

JH:They didn't have a party or a brunch or--

IL:No parties or nothing; I mean, after all, people couldn't afford it. After the war was over, then they made big deals out of it. The whole thing don't mean nothing! You know, to spend so much money nowadays for those confirmation and parties--and bar mitzvah and bas mitzvah: it's a waste o' money!

JH:When did they started having bas mitzvahs here?

IL:They started that because of equal rights. Originally the Orthodox don't have such a thing as bas mitzvahs--you know, for girls. And bar mitzvah, they give 'em a set of--tephillin, you know, that they put on their head; the [theory] is, thirteen years old, here it is; let's see you use it. But we never had--. We used to go up to the Torah and then they used to, too--people used to throw--you know, like small hazelnuts or throw him candy, you know--or give him something like candy--[you'd get]--but that's all--that's all it was. But, heaven above, [what] people have now--with dancing and all this--we never heard o' such a thing!

JH:But when did they start having them for girls?

IL:I don't know how long it's been since it started--we never had it. And around here we started having it--musta been--when Rabbi Zucker came here, I think it was; it musta been about 19--in the '70s sometimes. But they always had confirmation--it was at the temple.

JH:I'm wondering if some of the Orthodox girls would get confirmed.

IL:Some of the girls that--see, my daughter, for example--she and two other girls were confirmed--[had] confirmation--at the temple- Rabbi Jacob.

JH:How different would the confirmation have been from the bar mitzvah? Did they have to do a reading?

IL:Well, they would read portions of the Torah--my daughter read portions of it in Hebrew, and the other ones said it in English. There was very little difference, and you see, it all depends on the individual organization--how they wanta run it. I went to one about a month ago--at my niece--my niece's daughter was confirmed in St. Louis. That's a Reform temple, but more Conservative--more traditional; they had it on Saturday. But they had a big doing--not in the temple so much; they had a big luncheon at a hotel--I don't know how much it cost. It was ridiculous! I mean, to me--I mean, it don't make any sense to me for that.

JH:But the confirmations wouldn't--was the training less intensive for that, though?

IL:Well, they train 'em--they start training 'em when they're young. As soon as they start going to temple, they start training in the- especially in the Orthodox, you know: they start--in big cities they start in the Hebrew schools--I got a little grandson that's seven years old, you should hear him read Hebrew. See, when my grandson was bar mitzvahed--it's gonna be two years--it was a year ago in February or March, I think it was--it was two years in March; but he led the whole service! You know why? Because he went to Hebrew school until eighth grade. They go to a regular Hebrew school there in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. The Hebrew teacher--[teaches] both. It's recognized by the state--up to the sixth grade; after the sixth grade they go into the public school.

JH:But here, where there was less instruction available, were the bar mitzvahs and confirmations fairly similar.

IL:They're similar, but there's more in bar mitzvah than a bas mitzvah. Now, I have trained some of 'em myself--both. I had a little girl here about a year ago--it's gonna be a year--and she did a beautiful job--reading the Torah. Then we got a professor at SMS--Steve Broidy--you shoulda heard his daughter. Because he's the father- Steve is very educated in Hebrew. He could be a cantor if he wanted to. That's Steve Broidy. You prob'ly met him--and very fine--; he came here about 1973, I think it was--'72 or '73. Then they got--the other one we have in here that--you prob'ly met him, too--is a Dr.- Ken Burstin. Now, you met him?

JH:Not that I know of.

IL:He's a psychologist, I think it is. But his Hebrew--he's [located]--he can read the Torah--the scrolls--better than some rabbi. Do you know that? I know it, because I heard him! So that's the way we teach 'em and that's the way they learn. They start training him for two years--at least two or three before the time of a bar mitzvah.

JH:Right. But I guess the point I was making is that here, where you couldn't have that kind of intensive training--

IL:Individually we train 'em.

JH:For how long?

IL:Between the rabbi and individuals--for about a year or two. [Get training.] But those would have what they want. See.

JH:So it's up to the individual.

IL:Up to the individual, what they want to do: if they wanta train them to read the Torah, or they wanta train 'em just a line or two lines- or the--the whole business. Now, some of 'em--like Steve Broidy's daughter, you know--she conducted the whole service--Hebrew and English both; 'cause he taught her all the way. He knows it; he knows it real well. So it's up to individual families--[to be]--just the way they want it; but they do it--there's no problem.

JH:Somebody told me about a sign on National Street for the temple that--I don't know when this was--but that it kept being torn down. Do you remember that at all?

IL:A sign that was torn down?

JH:A sign--yeah.

IL:What did it say on the sign?

JH:I don't know; maybe it just--maybe it was just to point where the temple was or something.

IL:I never heard of it, to tell you the truth about it.

JH:Marc wanted me to ask you about your brother's role in the congregation.

IL:Well, I'll tell you--see, both he and I work together. When that place was built in nineteen hundred and fifty-four, we took it upon ourselves to see that--to take care of the place--the work in there; and we've been doing it ever since. We see that Friday night the place is clean--just more of a--custodians. See. Now, how long we can go on, of course, we don't know. But that's what- [unintelligible]--we like it; we do it for--because we like to do it. See, somebody has to take care of it. So we do the best we can. Somebody wants something, we help him out; he goes there, I go there--whichever it is. See, also my brother is--he's the secretary and treasurer of the cemetery--see. He takes care of all that; we take care of the cemetery just as well. Because the cemetery, originally was built in 1893. See. So, since that time--the last one who took care of it was my other brother--my oldest one--but he came here from Washington. And Herschel Rubenstein used to take care of it, and when he got so he couldn't take care of it, they gave it to my brother--oldest brother; and then my oldest brother got to be where he couldn't take care of it, so my other brother [has] got it so far. But he's got somebody else now help take to care of it, because he's getting up in age, too. But we just take care of it because we like it.

JH:Were you ever an officer in the--

IL:Congregation? I was on the board several times, but I didn't want no office. I let somebody else take the office. But I was on the board when I was in my young days. But then I told 'em, I said, I'm gettin' too old for the board--let the young generation--let them know what they're gonna do--because whatever they do is for them. You see, we have done our part. See, for me it's enough--like what it is. But if they think they need something better, let them get together and do it. 'Cause I wouldn't be here. Let's look what's gonna happen--I can see what happened seventy-five years ago--when we didn't have nothing. Neither one of 'em had anything--see. Then we got together and we got something.

JH:You were talking about more of a sense of unity after the war--after the Second World War.

IL:Yes.

JH:Was that--Hal Lurie thought that was partly because of the Holocaust--that there was a sense of--

IL:Not so much of that; it's because a new crop--new Jewish--younger generation started coming in. And they weren't so--would I would call--exceptions, you know; they don't have no stuck-ups, like I call them. And the old-timers who were that way weren't here any more. And the young generation that came up here that came from different places--they were different people; I mean, with them--they were just--if you'ere a fine person, they didn't care who are--if you're Orthodox or Reform, it didn't make a bit of difference. And that's what it did. Now, whether [unintelligible] the Holocaust--I'll tell you, I think more than anything else that Israel being a state made 'em realize something was different--see. Of course, the Holocaust -maybe that did, because, as far as that's concerned, I can go in a long list of it, because I was there; I used to take care of those displaced personnel in Germany.

JH:Personnel or--

IL:Displaced--German--the Holocaust: the ones came out from the concentration camps.

JH:Yes, but what's the second word? Displaced--

IL:"D.P.," they called 'em: "Displaced Personnel"; the ones that came out of the concentration camps. They didn't know what to do with 'em.

JH:Personnel?

IL:Displaced persons; displaced persons.

JH:Displaced persons.

IL:That's right. And I was there where--I worked with them in Germany, when I was in Mannheim.

JH:Right; you mentioned that.

IL:That's right; because I could speak the language. And I was in the quartermaster. So that's the reason I know those people, 'cause I was with them. And since that time, they realized what's goin' on, and that's why it got to be more of a combination; they got closer unity--see. The same thing with those groups that we sent away to Israel when the British wouldn't let 'em go in. They went to that island--. Anyhow, but that's what made 'em realize--they were all alike. They didn't care whether you're Reform, Orthodox, Conservative--who you are: you're Jewish and that's it. See? That made a difference in it. [That made] a lot of difference--see. 'Cause I've been getting a Jewish newspaper from New York--The Forward- The Jewish Forward--I've been getting it once every week; they got a weekly paper. And there's things there--I read there--that you never see in local papers.

JH:Did Zionism have much of an impact here?

IL:Oh, Zionism's been on-goin' for years and years; nothing unusual- Zionism.

JH:But I mean, here.

IL:But it meant a lot. Sure, it meant a lot. People--see, the thing is about Zionism--people don't understand--what Zionism is. Every Jew's a Zionist--whether they like it or not. Because we always pray every day to turn our face toward Zion. So, like it or not, Zionists--if you're a Jew, you're a Zionist. Now, we got a lot that belong to a Zionist organization [who] are not even Jewish--because they joined. But a Jew cannot deny he's not a Zionist; if he's a Jew he's a Zionist. That's a--people don't understand that.
JH:Do you think that the--well, especially when there were a lot of businesses here--Jewish-owned businesses--that the Jewish community had an impact on Springfield as a whole.

IL:What do you mean by impact?

JH:Well, with the businesses, for example, do you think that made much of an economic difference?

IL:Oh, sure! There's no question about it--as far as the economic industries; sure there was. Because they brought in a lot of money here--business--if they kept expanding. And many businesses here -as far as Jewish businesses is concerned--take, for example, the scrap metal business--like Karchmers and Federows. We had another one--a fella named Samers used to be here, too. They employed a lotta people. Rubenstein's, for example, in their store downtown, they employed a lotta people. There's no question about bringing industry and trade into Springfield--there's no question about that.

JH:Nathan said that his father was always trying to get people together from both sides.

IL:That's right.

JH:So even then there was a--

IL:Even then, [they were] tryin' to get together--people. Sure; his father was always tried to work--get people together--because his father and Mr. Lurie--Dr. Lurie's father--they belonged to both congregations. See. Because Nathan's father was very a very educated man--a very liberal man. He was about eight-four years old when he died. But his father did a lotta things.

JH:What about the ecumenical movement; do you remember that? In the '60s, where there was a lot of exchange between different churches and religions and things like that?

IL:Oh, I don't know too much about the ecumenical--. We always had a good relation between churches in our congregation; we never had any problem. Just remind me--you're talkin' about that. I got something I wanta show you. I'm glad you remind me of it. [Leaves and returns with book.] Central Bible College. Those days they called it the Central Bible College; now they call it--what they call it now? CBC--is that what they call it? Those days they called it the--

JH:[Reading] Central Bible Institute.

IL:Central Bible Institute--see. That's what they called it. And he was a professor there--Jewish. He came from England. And this was printed in Germany--in Yiddish. It's a New Testament--he's put it in Yiddish--see. And he was teaching it there, and--in fact, they got a room named after him. But he used to come to our services all the time. [Meyer Perlman]. A very educated man. But he believed that Christ is a--what do you call it? A Messiah. See. Now, he believed in it. But he also didn't deny his Jewishness. He used to come for services at our temple--in our sh--Orthodox, not the Reform. He came to the Orthodox synagogue; that's how come I got it: he gave it to me--back in 1923. 'Cause I can see--he knows I can see--it goes -in Hebrew it goes, [ ]: "The New Testament."

JH:Were the Orthodox services all in Hebrew?

IL:Yes. Yes.

JH:So he came anyway?

IL:Oh, he could--he read Hebrew--fluent--he was an educated man. Now, you see it's printed in Berlin: 1901. So he gave it to me and I've had it ever since. I keep it, and every once in a while, I just- it's all Yiddish; I can read every bit of it, see. He knew I could, so he just gave it to me, and it's--something like a souvenir. So there was always good friendship between us, because--. Like I said, Rubenstein had a wonderful group from Central Bible College that used to work for him; and he had customers--they'd all swear by him. As far as the Jewish population in Springfield, there never has been anything derogatory or something--what I'd call unethical--or break law--as far as breaking the law is concerned. Never caught anybody stealing or anything like that. So there was really--we had a good reputation. In fact--now, Nathan told you he was mayor here of the town.

JH:Do you think there was any feeling that people had to--I don't know -be sure they were as respectable as possible, in order to--. Or did you think about that?

IL:We didn't--never thought about that; we just along--each one got along with themselves. [Has me turn tape recorder off while he relates anecdote.]

JH:Did you ever hear anything negative about the Oberman plant?

IL:Oberman?

JH:About the plant--or working there?

IL:No. They used to employ, at one time--gosh--between twelve and fifteen hundred girls. It was a big plant. [And he] had one here in Springfield, and one in Bolivar, and one in Aurora--smaller plants. Now, he brought quite a few Jewish people here in town to work for the plant. There was--let's--they had two Kransbergs, they had David [Day]--a Fetter--two Fetters--five; Lurie's six. What was this other--seven. There were about eight or nine people--Jewish people--worked there; 'cause, see, Oberman himself was Jewish, you know. And the old man Oberman was uncle to Harold's father; that was Harold's father's uncle. So they--quite a few from St. Louis and other places came to work for them. O' course, some of 'em left afterwards. Now, Bernard Fetter, his father worked for Obermans. But we never had any problems, really--actually--problems. Oh, once in a while, you get people, you know--kids, you know throw a stone here; but that happens to the Christian cemeteries.

JH:You mentioned that there was a cross burned in the '30s in front of the temple.

IL:Yes, it was.

JH:Do you remember what the--was there a reaction by the community at all?

IL:Well--the Jewish community, of course, being small, there was nothin' that you can do about it. But we did have action by the preachers--and they were very much upset. And the reason is--you know--with all the different denominations we have--among the Christians--see--. You start an argument--you got--between the Seventh Day Advent and the Holy Rollers and the others, you got so many of 'em yourself, so what are you gonna do about that? Look at that bunch now in Waco, Texas. So you got all kind of crazy people who create the denominations. See. But we never had any problem; we always had a good relation between the Christian churches and our synagogue; we never had any problem. But, you know, sometimes the youngsters--kids, you know--they do everything in spite. They don't--it might not mean anything. There's two ways: either they do it just to be destructive or do it for money. But they went to Christian cemeteries and turned the cemeteries upside down--[you heard about it]. You see those people who went to the cemetery here on Grand--Maple Park Cemetery--they all took--went into one o' those places and took a person's head, you know, and they took it out there--they tore the place apart. In one those buildings, you know. What for? So, you get 'em. But we never had any trouble, you see. The thing of it is, actually, we have little vandalism in our cemetery-- seldom do we get anything like that. And the main reason is we got the--the gate is always open. We never close it. We found out that if you've got the gate opened, the less chance of when they come in there--they used to climb over the gate. And ever since we started keepin' the gate open--that's been about ten, twelve years ago--maybe a little longer--when Hymie--my brother -and I decided to do that, to see what's gonna happen--we never had any trouble. I guess they figure if the gate is open there might be a nightwatchman or something. But that's funny: we never had any trouble since we had the gate open. It's wide open; if you wanta drive in, drive in and see what's goin' on.

JH:And people like to do what they're not allowed to do.

IL:That's right.

JH:Do you remember your arrival at Ellis Island?

IL:Yes.

JH:What was that like?

IL:Well, to make it--describe it--when we saw Ellis Island from the boat, when we first got there, of course, we were very excited. And the big building--we get into a big building there, and they treat us real nice; we were there about--almost about two weeks. The reason we were on [for] two weeks was--they say about that- they're talkin' about people comin' to United States. At those days you couldn't come unless you go through a physical examination. We had our physical examination in Warsaw, Poland, before we got on the train to go to Antwerp, Belgium; and when we got to Antwerp, Belgium, they gave us--we had to take showers, and they gave us a physical examination; and when we got to Ellis Island we got a physical examination. And my mother happened to have a boil here- she didn't know--she tried to protect it--I don't know how she got it; and when they saw it, they put her in the hospital. So, she was there for about four or five days until they cleared it up, you see. But it was--it's--it's undescribable what that place was. But they treat us beautifully. Children--I'll never forget--there was children--at nighttime, before time to go to bed, about eight o'clock, everybody sat down, they served everybody milk and crackers.

JH:Where were you staying when you there?

IL:Where was I--on Ellis Island? It was down on the first floor.

JH:But you stayed there for two weeks?

IL:We stayed there two weeks. We had regular bunks, so we slept there--yes; oh, yes.

JH:So, it took that long to go through all the--

IL:Well, besides that, we were waiting for Mother; they wouldn't let her go out unless she's cured. But then they took us and put us on a train--right at Ellis Island. There's a train used to go there. Pick us up on a train at Ellis Island; and it seemed they crossed a bridge or something--I don't know; they hooked us up to another train, and then we went right on to Springfield directly.

JH:So you didn't have to come into the city or anything.

IL:No, we just went to Ellis Island and as soon as I [left] Ellis Island, I came to Springfield. But it was--you name it and they had every nationality [you] can think of. 'Cause we came on third class, you know; right on the bottom--see. It's funny: we didn't get sick; a lot of them got sick--got seasick. But it never bothered me. Never got seasick. The only time I ever got sick on a boat is when we came back in 1945, right before Thanksgiving Day. On Thanksgiving Day we landed here--coming back from France. We went from Germany to France and went to Marseille--that's where we got a boat--in Marseille, and we got one o' those Liberty boats--see. And was four of us on top of each other. Everybody got sick. Everybody got sick. Well, I'll tell you, I never saw--you couldn't go in the latrine there- it was loaded with people; and we were right on the bottom there- for about three days--because it was very rough. Of course, it took us eighteen days to come over. It took us six days to go from New York to Casablanca, but to come from Marseille into New York took us eighteen days. But that's the only time I ever got sick on a boat. And I looked--I thought was sick--about the only one- [unintelligible]. [Interruption. I ask Izzie to talk more about his trip from Russia in 1921.] And from there we took a train to Warsaw.

JH:You took a train?

IL:A train went from there to Warsaw.

JH:And that had already been arranged--right? That train?

IL:This was arranged--my aunt arranged it in Warsaw before--to have somebody to go there and take us--. Once we got to Neschviza, we wrote a letter to that person and they came and arranged it and they took us over there.

JH:Okay, because you said something like, "When we got there, we wrote to the party, and she came and picked us up."

IL:That's right.

JH:Who was the party that you wrote to?

IL:I couldn't think of her name.

JH:Was that just a contact?

IL:Contact--yeah. My aunt came before we did; she came here in 1920. And she stayed with that family, and she told that family that we were gonna be in sometimes--they don't know when. And she gave us the name--and wrote us the name of the party.

JH:And she picked you up Warsaw?

IL:No, she picked us up in Neschviza. She came in a train to Neschviza and got us and took us on that--. But, you see, we traveled by freight cars--not by train. It was a freight car. [Gytel asks question. I ask about which holidays Lotven children stayed home from school.] Sukkot--you know--that's a tabernacle; and we didn't go to school then, either. We never went to school on the Jewish holidays. Regardless which one that came up--they had three times a year. We had Passover--you know, that holiday, you know: Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Passover--and then--on the fall of o' the year was Sukkot, when they build those [unintelligible] ; we didn't go to school those either.

JH:Did you build the--

IL:We used to build one when my dad was alive. He lived on State Street. Yeah, we used to build one all the time. See. We had--we always had a sukkah. But we were never at school on the holidays. Those kids that wanted to go school, it was all right; those didn't want to go to school, we didn't.

GL:In a small town like Springfield, [whether you're] Jewish or non Jewish, you know, they just--go to school.

IL:But we never had any trouble with the teachers, though. They already knew it.

GL:In a town, like where I was born and raised in France--you know- even if you were not religious, you went--you didn't go to school; because you would have the laughingstock of the Christian kids: "Hey, how come everybody is out of school, and you--" you know- that type o' thing. So we stayed out; we didn't go to school. My parents were not religious, and we stayed out--because it was a neighborhood with lots of Jewish children, and we had, like, three thousand families in the city--or--the size of Springfield.
JH:This is Nancy?

GL:Uh huh. It was the size of Springfield: it was like three thousand families--between twenty-five and three thousand. So if you went to school--and all the other kids knew you were Jewish, you know- 'cause half o' the kids in our school were Jewish: "Hey, what's wrong with you?"

[We review a few details from previous interview. Talk about Displaced Persons Camp in Mannheim.]

Instead of "displaced person hall," you put "camp." It was more like a camp; and there wasn't a hall--it was in open air. See, it had a big fence around it, but it was more like a camp--you know, that--. There wasn't buildings there; in other words, mostly tents. 'Cause they couldn't put up buildings for everybody there.

IL:Very difficult--it came clear to our--waist-high. It was in March, 1921. March, '21, I know; 'cause I can remember like today.

JH:Did the horse also belong to the guy that was being smuggled out in the false bottom?

IL:He was in the Russian army. But he wasn't Jewish--see. But his father wanted--

JH:But the sled and the horse belonged to his father?

IL:The horse and the sled belonged to his father. He wanted to get his son out to--over to Poland. 'Cause he didn't want his--. See, it was right after the revolution, you know. You didn't know where you're going or what you're doing; nobody knew and--from nothing. So then many people just--even non-Jews--they left that country if they could--if they possibly could--see. See, because they didn't know- they didn't know--there was no government. There was nothing; they didn't know who's coming or going; they didn't know what the next day's gonna be!

JH:When you got to Neschviza in the--morning? Did you get there by dawn or was it still dark?

IL:We left on a Saturday--right after sunset. See. 'Cause-- being there in Europe--you know, we were in a family--with a family--a Jewish family--we had been living in that little village, close by--it's a small--like a little country; and we stayed with 'em until right after sunset, because, you know, we don't ride on the Sabbath, you know. So we stayed there until Friday afternoon until Saturday on sunset. And we left--musta been--at that time, in March, sunset was about six-thirty--seven o'clock maybe; and we didn't get out of the town till eight or nine o'clock in the morning. Took us over twelve hours to get there--through the woods and [other] places. We didn't know where we going. The fellow who had a horse knew which way we're goin', but we didn't know. We know we're getting out, but to know where we're going, we didn't know. We know we was going to a certain town; but my mother didn't know where the town was located. The fellow knew--

JH:The fellow underneath?

IL:The guy underneath and his father knew where it was.

JH:So before you left, did they say, "You"--say, "Go this way"?

IL:Oh, sure! He knew which way we were going. But we had to go the back way; we couldn't go with the regular road. 'Cause there's too many people stopping you--see. That's why we went a roundabout way through the woods and through the fields--[was] at night. 'Cause if you go to the regular road, there's someone--somebody will stop you there.

JH:What did you do when you got to--then you crossed the border.

IL:Once we crossed the Polish border we had no trouble; we got to a place--to a fella's--people's home down in--around in the Jewish neighborhood there in that--Neschviza. And they realized right there and then who we were, so they took us in.

JH:So that was part of the arrangement?

IL:No, it was--we had no arrangement whatsoever; we just happened to go to--a fella took us to a place--. When we got there, he originally took us to a hotel there--they had a hotel--a pretty good-sized city. When the hotel realized who we were--immigrants--he said, "Don't leave 'em here, because you might find they'll run into trouble"--and told us to go a certain spot where--the Jewish neighborhood: "They'll never look for you there." And that's where we were until my mother went to town to an organization there--Jewish organization--and showed her the name of the people from Warsaw, then they knew whom to contact.

JH:People from--oh, but--you were just staying with strangers, then?

IL:Oh, sure--all strangers; but they know you're Jewish, but--and they always had a kind of a connection. The people from--

JH:Through HIAS or--?

IL:No, the HIAS--when we got to Warsaw. That's where the HIAS came in. See. But once we got to Warsaw we had no problem. The only problem we had in Warsaw, [chuckles] it was so crowded in the place where we stayed. But you couldn't help it; you had to--. But after Warsaw we finally got--HIAS--that's when we were ready to come.

[Begin to discuss rabbis.]

[We begin to discuss Oberman factory.]

--have a union, but finally he gave up the place; he sold out--I think he died. When he died they sold it, or

before--I think he sold it before he died.

IL:He had a factory in the north part of town. And he had a car accident--he and his wife--right on the corner of Grand and Fremont. And he was in the hospital for about two weeks. And then one morning he got up, he was dead. Something in the inside was [got- hurt].

JH:But he had already closed the factory?

IL:But he closed his factory, yeah; he closed that factory before then.

JH:In the '30s or '40s or--?

IL:No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No. He didn't close his factory till- '70s, I think it was.

JH:Oh, '70s.

IL:Oh, yes.

JH:When was the union push? When were they trying to unionize?

IL:Well, that--all the way fr--[dating] back in the '30s, and they kept on--[cut off]

Tape II, Side 1
IL:--because of [unintelligible]--if a person is born Jewish. There's no distinction whatsoever.

JH:Well, do you ever get any comments from people who come from a- oh, say, a very Orthodox--community in St. Louis or Chicago or somewhere? Do they ever--?

IL:Oh, they come here--and they have no comments; they're not complaining about it. Because we have 'em come here--we've had many people come and eat with us because we had a kosher home- and spend the night with us, even, as far as that's concerned. Many times. We had some young boys come through here one time that were the ultra-Orthodox--you know, the Chasidim, you know; and they came through here and we stopped at my house--at Hymie's- and we went up there and we started talkin' to them--we told 'em; and right there they can see that you're--"It's a strictly kosher home, but we'll tell you what we'll do"--we says, "We'll give youse to eat" and we didn't give 'em any meat. We said, "You don't want any--you're not sure about the meats." And they ate from us just as well as anybody else. We never had any trouble--hm mm. Because, you know, this travels around: you go to St. Louis and ask for somebody--people in Springfield; for example, the place where we buy meat, you know--it's a butcher shop--kosher butcher--very religious people--they ask him about the Lotvens of Springfield, "Oh, yes, they're strictly kosher, because they buy their meats from us." Says, "Why [should] he should buy meats if he wouldn't be kosher?" So we never had any problems. That's why I like Springfield: I never had any problems.

[I ask about more recent congregants who have moved from larger cities.]

People come from big cities--then they learn--that we know just as much as they do--and maybe more. So either they get adjusted to our ways of thinking, or they--go somewhere else. But you'd be surprised how many young men came from outta town--from other places to Springfield--and adjusted to the congregation; they do more for the congregation now than the old-timers. We have today now--congregation is mostly all young people. And we've got better attendance than they ever had before--both men and women. Of course I think we're lucky; we got this lady rabbi: she does a lot for us. 'Cause, you know, once you get to work with the women, the men will follow. She's noticed that.