NK=Nathan Karchmer
JH=Julie Henigan
Tape I, Side 1
NK:[My family moved to Springfield from] St. Louis in 1912. I was just a kid. I didn't know too much about what was goin' on. See. But I'll do my best to answer your questions.

JH:Well, who were the first Karchmers to come to this country?

NK:My Dad. His name is Benjamin Karchmer.

JH:And when did he come?

NK:You mean from--?

JH:From the Old Country.

NK:From the Old Country--from Russia. Let's see, from 1912--. I can't tell you exactly. But approximately, I'd say, 1890.

JH:And do you know where in Russia?

NK:Beg your pardon?

JH:Where in Russia--was it?

NK:Where in Russia?

JH:Was he from?

NK:I know; it just slipped my mind. Yeah: V-i-l-n-a--Vilna.

JH:And--did he come on his own?

NK:Yes. Came on his own, but--he had a brother that preceded him in this country; he was in Wyoming.

JH:And do you know why they left?

NK:Why he left? Yes. He heard that this was a good country there; that, whether you got a job or whether you got in business, why--you could make a living.

JH:And was your father a young man at that time?

NK:Well, I'd say about nineteen--eighteen, nineteen. He never did tell me about it. I just figure that--. He had a brother in Wyoming- Denver. And his brother, I think, was in his twenties. And he was about ten years older--that is, his brother was ten years older than he. And my Dad's name was Benjamin.

JH:And do you know where he landed when he--where the ship landed?

NK:Ellis Island.

JH:Ellis Island?

NK:Here, yeah. This country. That's where all of 'em landed, I think.

JH:Are there any stories connected with his life in Russia or with the passage over here.

NK:No, he never did tell us about Russia. But over here in this country, he came here alone. Although he had a brother here in Denver. He came here alone, and he befriended another one--another man there -of his religion--of the Jewish religion, see. And this friend of his induced him to go into the cattle business. But he didn't have any money to do it with. So, he was able to buy a horse. And, then, this friend of his told him that--to do some peddling out in the country: buy some things there and sell 'em to the natives out in the country. Which he did. However, the first horse that he bought--he got ahold of enough money there to buy--that horse died--before he got on the road. And he bought another one--but he did go on the road. See. Out in the country--there. In those days there--.

JH:Was this in Denver.

NK:Beg your pardon?

JH:This was in Colorado?

NK:No, no, no. He left Colorado--he went and he was in Kansas.
JH:This is your father?

NK:Yeah. My father--he landed in Kansas, yeah.

JH:He didn't join your brother then.

NK:No, no. No. So--he was able to get ahold of enough money there to buy a horse--and buy a little stuff to go out in the country and peddle it to the farmers. And that was what he did. Until--a friend of his that came over from the Old Country here induced him to go into a partnership with him. And they started a business--see--of different things: peddling different small items, you know. And he- within a few years, he heard about St. Louis. And he had a distant relative that was in Memphis, Tennessee. So he decided he'd go visit with him. And--did I say St. Louis?

JH:Mm hmm.

NK:Yeah. So while he was in Memphis, he met his girlfriend-- that was my mother. And they got married. Which was

about--I don't remember the exact year, but he'd been in this country about seven or eight years before he got married. And--they landed in St. Louis. [With] some friends that were in St. Louis--that came over from the Old Country. They induced him to come to St. Louis. And--they raised a family; now, that's where I was born. A fam--of five: two boys and three girls.

NK:What part of St. Louis? I never did know. But--and he never did tell us--about what part of St. Louis that was; but--it wasn't much of a town in those days.

JH:What did he do for a living there?

NK:He still continued this peddling business. Yeah. And--let's see--[the one that] he finally wound up with. You know? The junk business- scrap iron and metal business?

JH:Mm hmm.

NK:--was a business that a number of the Jewish people got into. And he got into that--through friends of his, see. And he opened up a place in St. Louis--where he raised his family. And--after a few years, why, he brought over a brother from the Old Country. His name was Eli. And he put him in business. He didn't know much about the English language, but he made it all right. And he put him in the city of Memphis--see. And then, my Dad had an idea of growing. So, he heard about the city of Dallas--Texas. And he had a brother coming over here--not coming over--he induced him to come over--a younger brother. And he put him in business in Dallas. I say, "in business": any little shack to use as an office was considered the starting of a business, see? Nothin' fancy. And they bought scrap--scrap iron. You know what that is? What people didn't want, why, they sold it to the junkyard: that's what it amounted to, see. And then, he started another one--my Dad had an idea of--. He was close to the family; so he brought this brother over and then he brought another brother over. And he put him in Oklahoma City. And put him in the same business. So, he started and they had two branches. It wasn't much to talk about; it was just little--joints, you know. And then--my Dad was close to the family. He had another brother who passed away in the Old Country. And he brought the widow and three--four--three boys and one girl over. I asked my Dad--I said, "You did all this here. Where did all your money come from?" He said, "Well, in those days, it wasn't as costly as it is today--by far." "But," he says, "I managed to get ahold of some money--in my business." "And," he says, "I was always loyal to my family." And he said, "That's why." And I asked him, "How come you brought over your two brothers and the widow of another brother?" He said, "Well, I made up my mind"--[pointing at head]--he used to point to his head--"I made up my mind I wanted to help 'em." "And," he says, "I proceeded to do that." Well, then--I told you that my Dad had a family of three girls and two boys; so I was one o' the boys.

JH:What year were you born?

NK:1899. In June: I'm a June bug! And that makes me ninety three and a half years old today. So, what else can I tell you?

JH:Why did they decide to come here? Your parents.

NK:Where--in Missouri?

JH:To Springfield.

NK:In Springfield? Oh. St. Louis was where my Dad landed and got acquainted--he was acquainted with a number of relatives from the Old Country, see. Not only relatives; there was friends, too. And one day a friend of his, who used to travel around the country, told him about Springfield. And it settled--Springfield--settled in his head. And so he decided he'd move the family to Springfield. Well, before he decided that, he went to Springfield to look around and see what was goin' on. This fella was just tellin' him about different parts of the country, just casually. And in this group he mentioned Springfield, Missouri; and he thought that was a good town. So my Dad went to see about it. Well, he did and it impressed him; so he moved the family here. And, of course, we all grew up here and went to school. And, of course, he passed away; let's see--I don't remember what year it was. Anyhow. Go right ahead.

JH:What was it like for the Jewish families who were in Springfield?

NK:In Springfield here? Say that again?

JH:What were the opportunities like and the--
NK:Here?

JH:Yeah.

NK:Well, the opportunities was his business, you know. And the operation of his business in Springfield was just like St. Louis or Oklahoma City, where he had brothers, you know, in the business- they were all in the same business, you know. What scrap iron--the scrap iron and metal business was: people would bring in stuff that they'd discarded--[that] wasn't any good, see? And they'd send that back; that consisted of steel, brass, copper, zinc--different kinds o' metals. And he'd buy that, and they'd send it to the mills, and they'd remelt it again, see--and [meld] it into some new product. That was the job of the scrap iron business, see. And that's the business that I came from: my business originated from that business. People would bring in automobiles--old automobiles. You could buy a Ford and Chevrolet at that time for $365. So if they had troubles-- and needed their cars repaired--before they'd spend any amount o' money, they'd buy a new car. Well, so the old car went to the junkyard. Well, there were good parts on it. I got acquainted with a friend who was in the automobile salvage business. And it just occurred to me, in my Dad's yard--I used to go down there after school--I went to Bailey school here. And I used to go down there, and I'd look around and see different things; a lot o' the stuff was usable. People would have maybe a car that was--motor was givin' trouble. Before they'd spend any--too much money, they'd buy a new car. Well, there were still some good parts on that motor. See? If it was the cylinder block, then there were parts--different parts- in there--the carburetor parts--that could be replaced and put on other cars--see. That was where I got my idea. Now, it wasn't a hundred percent idea. I saw a friend of mine who was in that business. But he didn't get his stuff from the junkyard; he bought- he handled new stuff. Well, I figured that--I used to see people come in the junkyard--they still do--lookin' for different things- see. And I figured there was a demand for it. That's what put me in my business at first: I was in the automobile and salvage business -all that, see.

JH:Was that right after high school?

NK:Yeah--yeah, I graduated high school, uh huh. And then, my brother was--let's see, he was older. He was about three years older than I was. He was just gettin' outta the service. And I figured, well, he and I would--I talked to my Dad, I said, "How about--we don't need any money to buy any merchandise with; you got plenty of it here. Let's take out the good stuff. See, you were takin' the--everything and sending it to the mill; they're remelting it--scrapping it- everything. You're not salvaging anything." And I told him about this friend o' mine who was in the salvage business. I said there was no reason why we couldn't just take this stuff outta here--the good stuff--that isn't damaged or broken--on these old cars--and sell it: be in the salvage business. And I told him, my brother's gettin' outta the army pretty soon, so--we'd work together. Well, that's what got me into the salvage business. Well, you'd sell out of different items, and people would come in and ask for 'em; we didn't have 'em. So we started buyin' some new stuff. And that got us into the new business there; from the scrap business, we got into the new parts business. And we also got--do you know what recapping a tire is? Re-treading? We got into that business. I saw a friend o' mine there that said I oughtta get into that business: it goes with automobile parts. And we did. But it didn't do us any--much good; we lost money in it. And then somehow or another, we started a filling station. Well, maybe I'm gettin' too ahead of my--horse--or maybe that's not interesting to you.

JH:I'd like to go back a little and ask about the congregation. When you first moved here, roughly how many Jewish families were in Springfield?

NK:I don't know exactly, but there was very few. There was--see, I'd say if there was a dozen that would be--that would be pretty close. And they had just begin tryin' to organize--a congregation, see.

JH:Well, there was a Reform congregation already, right?

NK:Beg your pardon?

JH:Wasn't there already a Reform congregation?

NK:Well, most of the Jewish people here were Reform. Yeah. It wasn't called a Reform--or Orthodox, either one. It was just to get together on Sa--have a service. See, we have services--insteada Sunday, it's Friday nights. Yeah. Friday and Saturday morning. The people that called themselves Reform originally were Orthodox- their families, see. But the fact that they were not as well educated as some o' the other, they called themselves Reform. They didn't know. They knew the bible in English, but, I mean, they didn't in Hebrew. And they couldn't write in Hebrew. And they couldn't talk in Hebrew.

JH:Did you go to Hebrew school all through your childhood? Did they have school at--when you were in St. Louis and here?

NK:Hebrew school?

JH:Yeah.

NK:No.

JH:How did you learn?

NK:No. My Dad was--I wouldn't say a real church man--but he believed that he ought--they ought--to go to church every Friday night. Oughtta go and oughtta pray. And he figured that he had two sons and three daughters--he has five children--that they oughtta know som'p'n about it. So he was instrumental in--I would say he didn't do it all himself--but he suggested to the people, see, that--who also had children--see--that they ought to have somebody here to teach them. And that's what--that started 'em, see. Well, so my Dad was not a preacher, but he could perform the services there. In Hebrew. And there was another one or two that knew a little about it, see. So they'd get together--they'd get together from time to time there; and they established a regular service.

JH:Where did they hold them?

NK:In the Landers Building--wait a minute, not Landers Building. It's on--I oughtta know my town here: I've been here seventy years. On Walnut Street. Where was the show?

JH:The show?

NK:Yeah, there was a show here, you know, on Walnut Street. Years ago they used to bring people in from New York and different places, and have a show here. It was that building that's right next door--right next to it.

JH:On Walnut. Well, the Landers is on Walnut.

NK:It was between--that building was between South Street and Jefferson--on Walnut.

JH:Well, the Landers is on that block.

NK:That was the Landers Theater, wasn't it?

JH:I think so.

NK:I didn't know whether they ever called that the Landers Building or not. But we rented a room there. There was a two-story--two or three-story building there, and we rented a room for our services. Yeah. Until they got enough--more people--more Jewish people moved into to--here. And they got enough here to gather up a little money to start a church. On--. Which is the one they have now. What's that street there?

JH:Kickapoo and Belmont.

NK:Kickapoo and Belmont. I've only been here seventy years; I'm not too well informed. And, you know, I was the mayor of this town once.

JH:Yes.

NK:And I should know the town, but--. That didn't interest me there- that--about elsewhere. I just figured that while I was mayor, there was a business to run there, just like any business. See: expenditure of money and receipts of money. But we started our church in that room--on the second or third floor, I don't remember.

JH:And were there just a few--? That was just the Orthodox members?

NK:No, no; there was no such a thing as Orthodox and Reform.

JH:They were all together.

NK:Yeah, all together. There was more Orthodox people than there was Reform in there, see. There wasn't too many--I would say if there was fifteen, twenty all together, why, the majority of 'em, I would say, were Orthodox.

JH:When you say fifteen or twenty, you mean families?

NK:Families, yeah. Well, o' course, I would say this: the Reform were not as well educated as the Orthodox. The Orthodox believed in their religion, and they could write in Hebrew and read in Hebrew. But the Reform didn't seem to care--apparently they didn't care, 'cause they were not as well educated in it. But they belonged to the same organization, see. I know that we didn't have any preacher at the time, but my Dad was pretty well informed on that, and he would take part there. And there was one or two others [that] would take part in it, you know. And eventually, more Jewish people kept comin' into town there, to the point where they got enough money together to put up that building. See. That's the original building. Where we are now.

JH:When you were growing up, how much of your social activities would have been connected with--?

NK:Well, if I recall, there wasn't much in the social activities there. We would celebrate different holidays that we had--the Hebrew holidays, see. And, naturally, we'd get together then. But we'd come up to the building there, and--with prayers, and--we had and so on- why, we'd have a service.

JH:I have this [show Mr. Karchmer article, "Fifty Years of Jewish Life in Springfield"] by Ernest Jacob--Rabbi Jacob, I guess it is, and--

NK:Oh, he came later, yeah.

JH:--he wrote this. Well, he wrote this little thing. He mentions that there were--"As long as their number was still small enough they gathered every [Sunday] night for one big card party with a big supper afterwards and their Kaffeklatsches and masquerades, the Simchas Torah and Purim celebrations are still remembered." Does any of that sound familiar?

NK:The meaning of Simchas Torah means celebrating the Torah.

JH:But he says that those were fairly big events in the Jewish community here.

NK:Oh, yeah; yeah. Later on, some--. Well, you know, the Jewish population wasn't--it isn't much today. But, I mean, gradually, others came in, you know; and, of course, they became a member of the church, and they attended services. And it grew gradually. And we got a--even--well, today there's about a hundred members.

JH:Well, what was it like growing up Jewish in Springfield? Did you feel--did children or kids in school--make any distinction?

NK:Oh, yeah, they had a Sunday school. They organized a Sunday school -oh, yes--for the kids.

JH:But were there any conflicts, or did you run into anti-Semitism or anything?

NK:No--no.

JH:No?

NK:No. They--well, there always was a certain amount of anti Semitism--all over the country--where that's concerned. That's jealousy. If I--of course, not in my business, but in others--there was a pretty--people had clothing stores and shoe stores, you know. And that naturally created competition--see? And it resulted in anti-Semitism. Just jealousy: that's all anti-Semitism is. We don't harm anybody; we don't believe in harming anybody.

JH:Were any of the Jewish stores vandalized or anything?

NK:No, no; I wouldn't say that.

JH:Nothing that extreme.

NK:Huh unh. No. Oh, there was a little--wasn't many--I would say there might have been three--three or four--altogether.
JH:What, Jewish stores?

NK:Yeah. Not much. Small, small stores, too.

JH:Rubenstein's or--

NK:Well, Rubenstein's was later on.

JH:--was that later? That was later. Yeah.

NK:Yeah, they came--later on. They came from Greenfield, Missouri.

JH:That's right; that's right. But over the years there have been a number of Jewish-run businesses in Springfield. I guess more than you might expect given the small population.

NK:Say that again.

JH:There seems to have been a large proportion of businesses owned by Jewish business-owners.

NK:No. No, very--very small.

JH:No? I mean, over the years.

NK:Over the--no. There wasn't any outstanding, big--see, Heer's was the big town--here, you know--big store--for years. Rubenstein had a store on Campbell Street. They employed a couple of people, as well as they took part in it themselves: there were two brothers- see. And they originated in Greenfield.

JH:That's right. [Exchange about Mr. Karchmer's deafness.] People who established themselves in business seemed to if not get rich, they did okay here.

NK:Oh, yeah. Yeah, I would say that. Yeah. I don't know of any--any of the Jewish people that are here that were a burden on anybody else. No. They all got along. There was no big expenditures on their part. I wouldn't say there was anybody there that used to have a fancy car or fancy house. They just lived, that's all. Yeah.

JH:Did people from the congregation get together a lot other than for holidays and Sabbath?

NK:No.

JH:No?

NK:No. Oh--you'd find that--where, even today, you know, like, one family would have a friend--another family, you know--or maybe two friends--som'p'n like that. But--

JH:Small.

NK:--there was no big gathering together; huh unh. No. I would say--I would say one thing: in our religion, we believed in charity--helpin' one another. And we didn't apply that only to the Jewish people. It's like today. I make contributions. We don't need an--none of the Jewish families here need it. I make contributions there to different things there. The other day I sent a hundred dollars to the Red Cross--when that storm down there in Florida came up, you remember? Well, that's one thing about--. Once in a while you will find somebody that's on the road that'll come in here, you know- either broke, hungry. We'll help 'em out. Give 'em a meal; maybe get 'em a discounted ticket to somewhere they're goin'. But, outside o' that, why, there was no--nobody splurging--I mean. You couldn't say, "This family's--Jewish family's--rich, and that's rich--they're rich." And I would say that, in our meetings we'd get together--I said we believe in charity. We didn't allot that to just the Jewish people; we didn't need any charity, as a matter of fact--among our business people. But if there was a family there that--among the gentiles--that we'd hear about--some sickness or som'p'n--we'd come an' help 'em. We didn't want anything for it. That was just a- that's a part of--we just figured that was a part of our religion.

JH:How did the Depression hit everybody?

NK:It hit everybody alike. We're all citizens. Yeah? Here. I've been in business seventy years. Whenever there was a Depression, why, it hurt to a certain extent, but at the same time, we didn't spend everything that we had; we had it--kept it--some of it--in reserve, in case of a Depression, see. Which--not a lot of people--I know that if they'd a done the right thing and saved their money, insteada squandering it on different things--automobiles, a fancy home, fancy furniture--stuff like that. And then they suffered from that, why- we didn't believe in that. So naturally, we were not hurt by Depression. Now, today, I will say this: my business has been hurt by the depression. And we're not complaining, because others are hurt, too, as far as that's concerned. But--we have a reserve to take care of us--our living expenses and other expenses.

JH:What is your business now?

NK:My business?

JH:Yeah. Now.

NK:Well, we started in the--. I'll tell you--

JH:We got up to the new parts--and recapping.

NK:Yeah. Well--all right. And, well, that didn't pay; so we discontinued that. We started handling new tires only--see? We stayed in that, and then, with new tires--that was a part of the automobile business, there--people asked for parts--different kinds o' parts: batteries--you know--lights, bulbs. And we got into that: automobile parts, see. And--accessories. I had a man workin' for me--you know, we were also in the heating bus--we still are- heating and air conditioning business. I had a man workin' for me that was a pretty good mechanic. You know, some fellas there, seem like they were born a mechanic: they got it in their head. A friend o' mine there was having trouble there with an oi--they didn't have any gas burners in those days--at first. They heated with oil: oil burners. They had a burner to put in the furnace, see. I had a man workin' for me there that I'd say was pretty smart. A friend o' mine one day was havin' trouble there. And I said to him, "Look, I got a fella down there that's pretty smart. He's not an oil burner man, but he's inclined to understand machinery of different kinds. I'd like for him to look at that and see if he can help you--it won't cost you anything." "All right." The fella went out there. He looked it over and he came back; and he says, "I see what makes the oil burner tick -what makes it work." From that statement, we got into the oil burner business--see? And we started handling oil burners. And from oil burners, it went into furnaces--and we started handling furnaces.

JH:What time period was time?

NK:What time of the--? Oh, gosh.

JH:What decade?
NK:We've been in the business seventy years; I'd say it was--after about twenty-five or thirty years--I would say. Yeah. I may be a year or two or three off. We were very progressive there, I would say, because we got in from the automobile junk/salvage business into new stuff. Then we got into that gradually--an' the new tire business. [Then] we got into the oil burner, heating business. That's what got us in the heating business there: that friend o' mine there that was havin' trouble. So we started handling new stuff--new oil burners, new heating equipment, air conditioning equipment--along with that. We were--I would say we were--. O' course, I had a brother with me; he was very progressive, too. And today we're in- still in the heating and air conditioning business. But we're also- what would you call it? We buy some land and sell it.

JH:Developing?

NK:Yeah, well, there's a--

JH: Contracting?

NK:--customer of ours there who--one day wanted--needed some money. And he told me that he couldn't get it. "But," he says, "I've got five hundred dollars down on a piece of property." He said, "The time for me to pay up the balance is all gone. If you want it, I'll turn it over to you." Well, we knew nothin' about the land business--lots. This was out on--East Cherry Street, or--East Cherry Street Road: near the country club--see. So I don't know what tempted us--my brother and I--to buy--to take this over from this fella. He said, "You can take it over and pay off the balance." That got us into handling real estate. First thing--well, we had some land, we started building some houses on. Hmm? And we sorta let up on that, until here in the last two or three years we started building again. So that's part of our business. Buyin'--buy a piece o' land, build a house, and sell the house. Now, what was the question you asked me? How did I get into such a variety?

JH:No, I was just asking what you had been involved in. Did the occupations--the trades--that the first Jewish settlers here do- did those change?

NK:What business?

JH:Well, you've just told me that your business--your line of business has changed a lot.

NK: Yeah. Uh huh.

JH:Did you see a lot of other--either the trades or occupations--

NK:No. No, they got into--most of 'em were in the clothing business- see.

JH:Has that changed over the years, though? Have people gone into other things?

NK:I don't think so. Don't think so. 'Course there's people that were in this business in--here in this town--are out of business. They've quit, you know--retired. But they stayed in the one business--I'd say. Now, you take the Rubensteins: they were in the clothing business there, and they continued to be in the clothing business until they quit. That's not a part o' the Jewish--trade there--to be in the clothing business: no. 'Cause there's some of 'em--there was one of 'em was in the shoe repair business.

JH:Lotven.

NK:Lotvens, yeah. And, then there was--can't think offhand there--the people have gone and left town even. But they were in different lines of businesses. You couldn't attribute a certain business to the Jewish people--that that's all they were in, no. No. Always a variety of businesses.

JH:But business, as opposed to--. But they were mainly in business, though, rather than in other kinds of--

NK:Insteada workin' for somebody else? Yeah. I'd say most o' the- most Jewish people there that were in business. Very--oh, there were a few, you know, that didn't have the money to start a business; they got a job with somebody else, see.

Tape I, Side 2

[I ask Mr. Karchmer why he decided to run for mayor.]

JH:The Anti-Defamation League.

NK:You know--you ever hear o' that?

JH:Oh, yeah.

NK:You know what they are for?

JH:Mm hmm; mm hmm.

NK:They take the part there where any of us [that] are suffering from- any Jewish people [that] are suffering

from--they step in and take the part and find out--tryin' to find out why; try to remedy that. There's just still a lot of anti-Semitism in this country: yeah. And they take our part--the Anti-Defamation League--see? So you asked me why I decided--. Well, I was in business for--let's see--'55--about fifteen, maybe twenty years. And our trade was not--there was very few Jewish people here. Most of our people were gentiles--Christians--see? And it just occurred to me, I belong to different organizations here. And some of 'em, I was probably the only Jew in the bunch--see? This--I'm tryin' to think--there's this sickness there--kids get it. They have a convention every year.

NK:There you are! You know, I'm ninety-three and a half years old; my memory fails me sometimes. About fifteen, twenty years ago, I was one of a third persons there to start the muscular dystrophy organization here in Springfield. I was the only Jew in the bunch. Well, I gave--. Any time anybody came to me and said, "We need some help--I'm soliciting for a family that's broke or sick or som'p'n"--I always helped 'em; I never questioned 'em. I got to wondering--one time--I never ask anybody for anything: wonder, if I did ask my gentile neighbors--my Christian friends--for som'p'n- what kind of a reception would I get? That's why I ran for mayor. I wanted to find out--. Now, after all, how many Jewish people [are there] in this town? A hundred families there? When it came to a vote, they wouldn't have any--any say-so. Oh, I put down my name there to run for mayor. It wasn't my intention to get elected. Not a bit. 'Cause I was in business; I was making money--I was doin' all right. I couldn't afford to get away from my business. 'Cause I was needed in it. So I put down my name. And there were eight of us runnin' for mayor--that time. You know I was elected?

JH:Yes.

NK:I was a thousand votes higher than the nearest man to me. A thousand votes over. I wanted to find out what--. Here, I'm helping out people other than my religion. But they're human beings; they're entitled to help if I can afford it. And I did. All right? I'm making my living from these people. Ninety percent of my business is from gentile people. All right? I'm helping them. But--what if I ran for som'p'n, and I wanted som'p'n from them? What chance would I have? Now, I wouldn't like for you to publish that. Of course, that was just an idea--see? There was nothin' to depend on there, and I couldn't get out and do any talkin'--as far as that's concerned. Like some o' these fellas that are runnin' for office, you know--what they're gonna do when they get in office? The only thing I had to say--when I was questioned there: "What's your story? Everybody's got a story about what they're gonna do when they get in there." Well, my story was this: I said, "I'm in business. You know I'm successful. I attribute that to my gentile friends--who are the majority of my customers. All right? Maybe there was something I can help by being the mayor of this town. I've been in business; I'm successful in business. The mayor's job is really the head of a business. And I could use what little I knew about it, see? I appeared before the Junior Chamber of Commerce group--different groups, you know. I remember--. These fellas like to have a lot of fun, you know. These young fellas, you know, in that Junior Chamber of Commerce. There was eight of us running. My turn came to speak--see? And this fella said, "Well, Mr. Karchmer, what have you got to say if you were elected? What are you gonna do for the people?" I said, "Well, I'll tell you. You've been stealing for

years--over there. Give me a break." [Laughs.] That was a joke. [Laughs.] And, of course, I was elected; I had a thousand--. I just wanted to see what--what chance I had--as a Jew. I had a number of--I'd say--friends o' mine who were preachers--in the Catholic Church; different denominations. Some o' these people--friends o' mine--would come to me for their church. They were running a church. Now, let's see, this fella here--I can't think of his name--a good friend o' mine, and I like him; he's head of an organization and he's a preacher. They're over here on--Drury College, I think, is where their off--

NK:That's the fella. Dorsey Levell--yeah. I'm out in a group of people and I see him, I say, "Come here; I want you to meet a fella here." I said, "This man here is always on the level!" [Laughter.] I said, "He comes to you and asks you to help; he's not doin' it for himself: he's doin' it for somebody else." I was a booster for him; I still am. See, what's the name of the organization?

JH:I know what it is; I've gone blank.

NK:Anyhow--that's all right.

JH:Council of Churches.

NK:Huh?

JH:Council of Churches, I think, or something like that.

NK:Well, that's not the only thing. Anyhow, that's all right; don't bother about it. I just wanted to let you know--the fact that I'm Jewish here doesn't mean that I believe that the gentiles are all wrong: no. No, I was born a Jew and--I practice that. And what we practice I like: helping people--charity. That's a big thing with us, is charity -see? So--I don't feel like I'm a stranger to any religion--'cause I believe what the rest of 'em believe in--as far as that's concerned. Even Jesus--was a Jew--to begin with.

JH:That's for sure.

NK:Yeah. And--we don't go out practicing--advertising that. But, I mean, when it comes right down to brass tacks, we we all come from the same place--see?

JH:You were elected in--what, '56?

NK:'55.

JH:'55?

NK:Yeah. Served one year.

JH:Served one year?

NK:One year, because they changed the form of government. They elected a council--or, not a council manager--a city manager type- see? And, of course, there was a new election came up, and that let me out. Which I was satisfied with, because--I had to leave my business so much. To attend to the city business, see.

JH:So, what was it like being mayor--for that year?

NK:Oh, I liked it. I liked it, because--I saw a lot of things there that I could do to help, see? You know. People would ask you, "What do you think about this or that or som'p'n that's comin' up?" See? And I thought I had a good

answer--I would tell 'em. And the answer that I gave was- sometimes--I'd say, "I'm helping them. So I'm for 'em." And being a mayor is just like being a foreman of a business. There're certain things you gotta obey, you know. We have the city--state, is it?- state association--organization. Have city ethics, you know. And you follow those. And there's a lot of--people that don't. People get into politics for what money there is in it.

NK:No, I don't think so. But I--I would preach that. If I saw something and it was coming up that was--somebody was tryin' to benefit moneywise out of, I'd speak up. I wouldn't speak up; people would ask me, "What's your opinion?" I'd answer 'em; I'd say, "I don't go for that. 'Cause that's not a part o' the city. That is not a part of the- of the laws."

JH:Why did they change the form to city manager?

NK:Well, in politics, you know, there's a certain number of people that run for office that's defeated. They never give up. They keep running until they get som'p'n. Well, by changing the form of government, there's a city manager appointed, and mayor--a new mayor; new officers of different kinds. It starts all over again. Those people--a lotta those people that lost out when I was running for office--have a change again--see? And a lot of it is done for money--what money there is in it.

JH:Was there a vote on the change--a citywide vote?

NK:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The people--I wasn't opposed to it, but I didn't go out preaching that I was opposed to it. People would ask me; I'd say, "Leave it--that's--you know--fine, that's an expensive form of government. And it isn't the way it is now. Because when I get three hundred dollars a month," I said, "that's not enough." And, I said, "I give most o' that away--as far as that's concerned. But, if you start a new government all over again, that's new expenses, new people--that you don't know how they're gonna perform. And that's why I'm opposed to it, but--I realize that the majority rules. And if the majority rules, and they win, why, that's what you gotta look forward to as a citizen." I never fought the--I never fought it.

JH:The election, when you ran--how did they work it? It wasn't Republican-Democrat, was it?

NK:No. No. No, you ran as a--. In fact, I come from a Republican family; but I never preached that. I never belonged to the local Republican Party, even. They got after me one day when I was mayor. And I said, "Well, now, look--why would you want me in that organization? To use my title? I've got a job to do. I gotta obey the city ordinances--city laws: that's my job." I said, "I'm not opposed to anybody else; I'm only for what has to be done." See? But a lotta people are not that way; they're in it for what they can get out of it. You read in the paper about it: different people are arrested for different things--you know--even up in Washington.

JH:Well, you know, you said when you were elected that you wanted to see what response you'd get, and when you got elected, how did that make you feel about the question?

NK:Well, when people would come to me and say, "We're doin' this: we're running an organization; we need some help. We're runnin' an organization that needs help"--they helped the poor or helped the families--or the sick--and so on; I'd get into it. I didn't get into it; I'd help 'em--with money. I didn't feel like that I was doing anything--wealthy. I thought it was--I thought it was the right thing to do--see? And other people should do that--see. But I didn't go out preaching that: that you're wrong; I'm right. No--I never did that.

JH:But how did you feel when you got elected?

NK:Oh, I felt that--I felt well. If the majority of the people voted for me, they thought that I would do a good job for the city. I promised that when I did that--when I ran for office--that I would obey the laws. Or anything that a mayor was supposed to do, that was my job; I was supposed to do it. And that I shouldn't do it for what money there is in it: no. I was given a small salary, and that's it. And that's what made me satisfied. I see today--they had a--around the country we had storms there: people were killed, residences were destroyed, businesses were done away with there. The fact that my little help is gonna help them get back on their feet, I felt good about it--that; I felt it was something good to be done. I didn't want any repayment: no. I wouldn't accept it. I didn't do it for that purpose.

JH:When you got elected, did you feel as though that meant that your religion wasn't a part of the--

NK:Did it feel like what?

JH:That religion wasn't an issue?

NK:Yeah, that's the way I felt. Yeah; I did. That's one thing I wanted to find out. Some people make it that way. And, in--I think there might have been a few votes in this town that took that angle. But not a majority. Or else I wouldn't've been elected. And that--you read in the paper there--different religions are damaged. Or criticized, too. They take religion there, insteada the human element part of it. No, that's--they don't take the right thing. I don't think religion oughtta enter into it. My religion is taken because I was born into that religion; my parents took that religion. Out of respect, I should stay with it. I don't go out preaching that my religion is better than yours: no. I say your religion is good; follow it. Nothin' wrong with it--is what I tell people. I've been asked that question--here.

JH:Hmm?

NK:Here. I've been asked that question. They were askin' me a question: "You're Jewish. What do you think of the Christian religion?" I said, "I have no answer for that. The only thing is, people that are in it- that are Christians--who were born that way--they elected to stay in that religion--that respect their parents--I have no criticism." "Would you say yours--?"--I've been asked the question--"Would you say yours is the best?" I said, "No, I wouldn't say that. And I wouldn't criticize. I wouldn't--" "Well, then, why do you pick that?" I said, "The only reason I am Jewish is because my parents were. Out of respect to them, I maintain that religion. And if I went off on another religion, that would be irrespectful to my parents." But I don't say my religion is the best. No.

JH:So you wouldn't--? Do you remember anything--any behavior--that was anti-Semitic in town--here?

NK:Here--in--here?

JH:Yeah.

NK:No.

JH:No.?

NK:No. Oh--I'll tell you, I've heard friends o' mine who were Christians say, "I heard an occasion there where you--you were criticized." I said, "What did I do wrong?" "No, not you. Because you were Jewish. You're all wrong because you're Jewish." I said, "Well, that's not right." You know, some people'll criticize--they criticize the Catholic religion; [some] criticize their Protestant religion. You know that. Well, that's wrong. One fella said to me--when I told him it was wrong--he said, "Why do you think that's right--not to criticize him?" I said, "I have no answer; only to say that people have a right to their own mind--to think the way they want to. And to respect their parents."

JH:When people here first heard about the Holocaust--in Nazi Germany -how did that affect the community here?

NK:Didn't affect 'em. It affected the Jewish people--I would say--over the world: yeah. They thought it was wrong. There was a loss of lives there. Why? Because they were Jewish. A religion is not a penalty--for a person. If that's the case, that very particular person that says that being a Jew is wrong, he's saying that prob'ly about the Catholics, too--or others--other than his own religion. Which is wrong.

JH:Do you remember the first rabbi to settle here?

NK:Do you have his name?

JH:Yes, it's here somewhere. Karl Richter.

NK:Richter, yeah; I remember the name. But I don't remember much about the gentleman. O' course, I was a youngster at the time, and the older people dealt with him--well, in this organization--the synagogue. They hired him; they told him what had to be done. And he was an employee, just like anybody else working.

JH:I'm not sure if that was the first or not.

NK:I--I will say one thing about the Jewish religion: we don't criticize any other religion. If the question was asked o' me, "Well, how come you're not a Catholic; you're not a Protestant? There must be som'p'n wrong with 'em." Not in my mind--no. It's not a question that--to determine whether they're right or wrong. The question is their parents--there was no question to it: they was born what they are-- they're following it up. And that's up--they have a right to their own mind--what they think is right or not; not mine.

JH:You said earlier that you didn't see much difference between the Reform and Orthodox?

NK:No. No, the only thing is--the Reform group didn't make a--[seen] practice of reading Hebrew. But the Orthodox were taught to read Hebrew. Well, I noticed there was a difference when I talked to a- and--the Reform group didn't seem to talk Jewish--at all. All they talked was the land that they were in. If you're in this country it's English; in another country, German: wherever they were born and raised. But we never believed in any criticism.

JH:And what--did you feel you had more historical--the Orthodox maybe had more sense of history?

NK:Yes; they did. They did. We just took the bible--and followed the bible. Moses'--teachings and his visits--different visits, yeah. And the creation of the world; ten commandments.

JH:But for a while, though, the two used to have different services, right? Separate services?
NK:Yes, that's true; that's true. There's always somebody there that--in a group o' people--that want to have it their way. Yeah. Why? Because--I think--is because they just didn't understand: they couldn't talk Jewish--and they didn't understand.

JH:What happened to change that, so that they united?

NK:Just a few--. Because there was so few here--see? Our wedding ceremonies are the same; our funeral services are the same: why not get together? That's--that's the story, see. Our children are learning from the bible--that's the same thing. So why separate 'em? I never believed that a Reform Jew was what some people think--among the Jewish people: that they're disregarding a lotta the religion. No, that's not true. O' course, people have a right to their own--mind; but they can be wrong.

JH:Did having full-time rabbis here influence that at all?

NK:No.

JH:Did that change anything?

NK:Well, I would say it prob'ly did, because we had one service. See? Had one service. And the Reform and Orthodox were there together.

JH:Were you involved in the activities B'nai B'rith and--?

NK:Oh, yes. Yeah. B'nai B'rith is a charitable organization. Not only for the Jewish people. Oh, we fight anti-

Semitism--the ADL does; but if there's anything wrong in the other parts o' the country or the other parts o' the world, if we're asked to help, we do. We believe there's a difference between right and wrong. Understand what I mean? There's a right and a wrong. I don't care who's--well, not even if there's--. If we would find there's one of our own religion that's preaching something that's wrong, we tell him about it. Yeah--tell him, "You're wrong." But--I don't recall ever having to do that. But if anything turns up like that, I would. In other words, I believe in helping the local charitable organizations. Oh--people that tell me they're doin' som'p'n that's wrong, I say, "No. I don't believe it. I think they're doin' the right thing, because they're in an organization that's doin' the right thing."

NK:Oh, yes! Yeah. Yeah, let's see--

JH:In town.
NK:Here?

JH:Yeah.

NK:No.

JH:Chapters. What about Hadassah?

NK:Hadassah's a ladies' organization.

JH:Right, but--.

NK:It's ladies.

JH:But there was one here, wasn't there?

NK:We have a--the men have a separate organization, too. But it's just more of a social organization. So they get to get together.

JH:Well, the women have Sisterhood.

NK:Well--some of 'em call it Sisterhood, yeah. A group gets together- called the Sisterhood. And what's the other one that you mentioned?

JH:Hadassah.

NK:It's a national organization; Sisterhood is a local or--. Sisterhood really is a part of the Jewish temple--see. Jewish organiza--we call it a temple.

JH:Did you see any change in observance with the Orthodox congregation--changes in observance--over the years?

NK:Well, we--Orthodox and the Reform accepted a reunion of the two together--see--so they could pray together. And have one organization.

JH:Was there any sense of compromise?

NK:No.

JH:Well, of observance of certain parts of ritual or--?

NK:I can't think of anything [that I know of]. In our organization, we have people that come from a Reform family. Some came from a- Jewish family, you know--I mean--Orthodox. We never question each other. That's out of respect to our parents. And not only that- but we--when we first started here--we had mostly Reform Jews. And Orthodox. And--I recall criticism about the Reform; I said that you can't criticize 'em. "Well, because they leave out certain things -they don't observe like we do." Said, "That's their privilege." There's no law to that effect--that they have to do certain things. It's just human beings get together and decide what they want and what they don't want.

JH:You said the weddings were the same in both. What about bar mitzvahs? Were they the same?

NK:Well, I think there's a little difference; but frankly, I haven't attended any Reform bar mitzvahs there--that I recall. But--it's about--I think it's about the same thing. I can't see any difference in 'em, because it doesn't refer to Reform Judaism and Orthodox Ju- ; it refers to the

bible--see? Certain prayers that they take outta the bible.

NK:In confirmation? Well, I can't elaborate on that, because--that's a teacher's job--see? A Reform rabbi and an Orthodox rabbi have different ideas as to their teaching. And I'm not--enough up on that there to discuss it. But we're not having any problems on that account.

JH:I skipped a question earlier. When we were talking about your election--how active was the Jewish community, not just in your election, but in politics in general?

NK:None at all. Neither was I. I wasn't in it. My own par--the Republican party--they knew I must belong to the Republican party because my Dad there belonged to it, see--since St. Louis on. And if people ask me, "How come you don't attend our meetings?" I say, "Well, I don't condemn the Democrats. What would I do at the meetings there?" I said. "You have certain rules that you follow. I think I follow those rules there. When I vote, I don't vote as a Democrat; I vote as a Republican. There's nothin' wrong with that." But they [laughs]--I know when I was mayor they wanted--asked me to come to a meeting. All right? I came to a meeting. [Addressing me] I don't what party you belong to--but I'll tell one on my own. At that meeting they found out they were runnin' short on money- there; so they wanted volunteers to go out and make a--collection. Well, I didn't volunteer, but they said, "Here, Mayor, would you- would you help us out?" I said, "Well, I'd help you out, but I want it understood that I would only want to go to a Republican, because if I went to a Democrat and they asked me what am I doin' here, why, that wouldn't be right." So they appointed me--there--and several others, you know. So they gave me some names. All right? I knew a couple o' fellas there-- and I went to 'em. One fella gave me a check for twenty-five dollars. And then the second man I went to up in the Landers Building--I forget who that was anyhow and--I don't want to mention any names. He was secretar--or treasurer of the--of that Republican party. And I said, "You know, they appointed me and gave me your name there to solicit--say I need some funds." I said, "You know, if it's needed, all right; but there was no discussion as to its need." He said, "We don't need it. We got plenty o' money." I said, "Was that so?" I said, "Then I'm not soliciting you for any money." I went back there to the fella that gave me that twenty-five dollars; I gave it back to him. He said, "I never heard of anything like this." I said, "You're hearing about it now." I said, "I don't believe in--doping up a man--there, because he don't know what's goin' on. He's depending on me--the solicitor--that they need the money." And I said, "I didn't know. But I talked to the treasurer--who was on my list. That's the reason I'm back here to give you this money back." He said, "I never heard of anything like that." I said, "You're hearing about it now." I said, "I don't believe it's right there to solicit anybody when it's not--the money's not needed--just because he's got it. We can always go to him when it's needed. So. Oh, one or two of 'em--one or two fellas didn't agree with me--on that. I said, "Well, that's the way I feel about it. 'Cause it isn't right to take som'p'n from a man that doesn't--that isn't needed." I said, "I have people comin' to me--need help; I take it for granted that they're honest about it: they're soliciting money for a cause that's needed." That's the only time I ever went to a meeting! [Laughs.] ['Course] I never took any action--at all. They disappointed me and I didn't want to say, "No, I don't wanta have anything to do with you." I accepted it.

JH:Was the congregation more Democratic or Republican, or was it--?

NK:Yeah. Our congregation?

JH:Yeah.

NK:We never discussed that. I don't know--even today, I don't know. As long as we've been here. I couldn't tell you who's a Republican or who's a Democrat; I never heard anybody open up and talk about it. Now, my own son-in-law, I think, is a Democrat. When they voted there, he asked me who I was gonna vote for for president. When I told him, he said, "Well, he's a Republican." "And who're you gonna vote for?" "The other fella." "Well," [I said,] that's all right. That's your privilege."

JH:Would you say that the congregation has had an impact on Springfield in any way?

NK:Had an impact on Springfield?

JH:The Jewish community, yeah.

NK:On the citizens, you mean?

JH:Well, on the city--on the history of the city, or the social life, or the business life, or education--or anything like that?

NK:No. We never took part--as a group--on anything that came up. If there was anything to be voted on, we were lookin' to the people to vote it: let 'em vote the way they want to. That answer your question?

JH:I guess. I reread it, and it didn't say "the congrega-tion"--it just says, "Have Jews influenced"--"the congregation"--yeah, the congregation. And have Jews influenced education in Springfield?

NK:Huh unh.

JH:No? Civic and cultural--?

NK:We received some education, all right--from the people here. As to what was right and what was wrong--sure.

JH:What about the civil rights movement in the '60s; was there activity in the synagogue or--? [Mr. Karchmer shakes head.] No?

NK:No.

JH:Did Zionism have an impact on the Jewish community here?

NK:Here? No. No.

JH:No?

NK:Zionism is an organization: [an] organization of Jews. And if they needed any help of any kind--financially--why, they got it--got some help, yeah. But just financially, but

not--any advice. Or not any program; hmm mm. That was their--we figured that was their business. See.

NK:Well, there is an organization, the United Jewish Appeal; yeah.

JH:So, you're saying that organizations like that would be supported financially, but people wouldn't take any kind of active role?

NK:See, all they ever solicited was financial [matters]. Yeah. We help some of 'em, yeah. If they had a good program there. Like the United Jewish Appeal, for instance. Right now, they're helping the Jewish people in Africa--in Russia, where these--there was--Jewish people were mistreated--yeah; they solicit us, we'd help 'em, yeah. With some funds.

JH:Would you say that everyone accepted Zionism, though, as a--well, accepted the idea of Zionism? Of return to--

NK:No, no, not everybody accepted it; uh unh. And they didn't expect you to. If there was solicitation there, there was always a purpose of helping people. Not helping the organization: uh unh.

Tape II, Side 1

[Mr. Karchmer has begun to talk about his high school education.]

JH:Instead of going to the public high school?

NK:Well, I was already in high school. I started in there for about a month. And this group of fellas came--got together and asked me to come with 'em. I said, "Well, if you fellas think it's better to go there than there is here, there's not--there wouldn't be too many, like there is in high school. Maybe I could better understand--what I'm learning over there." So I went. It didn't last about a year. And I never went back: I never went back to high school, and I never went back to Drury College. Just--I started in business.

JH:So you didn't graduate from high school?

NK:No.

JH:No. Okay.

NK:Never graduated. Just on that account. Went into business.

JH:School of hard knocks?

NK:And at that age, money looks good--see? To a young person. Making a profit. And, of course, after a while, I begin to figure--to think that I was learning something. I was learning business.

JH:Oh, I forgot--you told me about your father's marriage. You were married, right?

NK:Mm hmm.

JH:How did you meet your wife?

NK:My wife--I was married twice. I lost two of 'em through death. What's this national disease that's goin' on--they haven't found any -? A-l-t-h-som'p'n?

JH:Oh, Alzheimer's.

NK:Alzheimer's, yeah. I lost both o' my wives with that. What was the question you asked me before about?

JH:How you met and married.

NK:Oh, yeah. My first wife was a second cousin. And when she passed away, I was visiting my folks up in Detroit; and they had a daughter who had just became a widow. She was also a second cousin. So I was married to two second cousins.

JH:And that was a family here in town?

NK:Beg your pardon?

JH:Where was the family? Where were they living?

NK:Oh. The first family was in Memphis. Yeah. Let's see--that was my mother's sister. And, let's see, up there in Detroit--was on my Dad's side.

JH:Well, if there's anything else you'd like to add about the history of- either your history or--

NK:I think I talked too much already.
JH:You do? [Laughter.]

NK:No. Oh--if different things came up--subjects--I could elaborate on--. Yeah, but--you got enough.

[After I have unplugged the tape recorder, Mr. Karchmer and I begin to discuss the current rabbi, Rita Sherwin. I turn tape recorder back on and ask him to repeat or elaborate on his statements. Before I get the machine on, he says, "You want me to say I love her, I do!"]

NK:Oh, I admire her for her efforts, because most of the rabbis are men. And it's just a rarity that a woman becomes a rabbi. The word "rabbi" means teacher. And here, she's just getting outta school- you know--and going into a job, where there's a number of people- and especially elderly people--who have been through the so-called mill, you know--life? And they know what's going on in different organizations--I mean, in the--in this particular organization. They know the services--a lot of 'em know the services--and they know the holidays, and so on, there. And she took up som'p'n--I admire her for that. And she seems to be a very pleasant person. I think a teacher is something I highly admire. What is a teacher? A teacher is one that's teaching younger people that don't know things. They're educating 'em. And that's what a teacher is. And although they get paid in dollars and cents, that's not enough. Not enough. They should be paid otherwise; I can't tell you offhand how--whether it'd be religiously, charitably--. But a teacher, in my mind, is a person who is highly to be admired on that account. Now, there's a woman that's got a youngster--I think, twelve years old. All right. She's a widow. She's gotta support that fella as well as herself--a youngster. You come down here from another town into a new neighborhood, and you don't know the streets, don't know where to go to buy this--or buy that; and she's willin' to take that job on. And it isn't a matter of dollars and cents--which is something that she needed, of course- to pay bills, which accumulate, naturally. But there are other things to admire a woman rabbi--or any woman that's a teacher, I'd say- more so than dollars and cents that they receive in salary.

JH:So you don't think it bothered anybody to have a woman as a rabbi?

NK:You'll always find somebody who'll say, "What--what can they know?" "Well, they're a human being. They can learn just like a man." "Yeah, but then this--this is a position that's always been held by a man." "But tell me, then, what is the reason why a woman should not be in there? Tell me that?" They can't answer. I told this woman--when she came here--I never met her before. I said, "Now, listen, you know, I'm much older than you are. I'm not gonna say [these] things so you should love me. 'Cause I'm ninety-three and a half years old. I'm a June bug"--I take take that--I use that "half." But I said, "If there's anything that I can assist you; you're a stranger here in town. You don't know the streets, you don't know what's goin' on. A lotta things I don't know; but--if I don't I want you to know that I'll get somebody to assist you--if I can't help you. Just don't hesitate--because you're new here--that you're infringing on anybody's time. Huh uh; not with me. I just want you to feel free to just call me any time you want to: where can I get this, or where can I do this, or what's your opinion on this? And I don't know it all.

But--if I don't, I'll find somebody that does." I left it all free for her. And I check with her very often. And I say, "Is there any problems that--comin' up? Anything there that you need--that you can be assisted on? And as I told you before, if you don't know--or if I can't help you, I'll get somebody that can. So just feel free to be in this vicinity without feeling that you're trespassing--and because you might want to ask somebody something, that you're insinuating on their time: huh unh. That's not Springfield." And I said, "That doesn't apply to our particular religious group." I said, "I've been here seventy years. We got Christians here that are people that are willin' to help--different ways. So--make yourself at home." I said, "Be free. And this youngster here: come here. I [guess] you don't know anybody around this town. You might wanta buy some candy or some chewing gum or som'p'n: here's a five dollar bill." "Oh," she said, "Don't give him any money!" I said, "Oh, now, look; that's freely--I want him to have a little money. He don't know anybody. He can't ask anybody to help him--while he's here. This five dollar bill'll help him." I said, "Confiden-tially, I'm not rich--throwin' money away. But," I said, "If you are in need sometimes--you're just starting out here, with your income coming in. And you need any help, let me know; if I can't give it to you, I'll find somebody who can. I'll recommend you--as to who you are--and what you're doin' in this town." I like to help people. And don't pass that around--what I told you--because I don't want you to say this guy Karchmer is--he's doin' this and he's doin' that. 'Cause I don't want any credit for it- see? I don't need any credit; I got the cash! After seventy years, I oughtta have a little money saved up.

NK:What do you mean by the other rab--?

JH:The rabbis who have been here, since you've been in Spr--

NK:That I've helped or som'p'n?

JH:No, no, that--. Did any of them make a strong impression?

NK:Well--I figure that a teacher--a rabbi's a teacher--that I can't criticize 'em. They study for that particular job. I don't know. You know, I've heard people in school: they didn't like this teacher, they don't like that teacher. And I tell 'em--plainly, "You know what that teacher's doin' for you? Givin' you som'p'n that you don't know." So I respect--I respect a teacher. Whether they're a rabbi or a minister or som'p'n. I respect a--a minister of another religion. 'Cause he's called on there--in sickness and death--to help somebody. And I respect them for it. And he certainly doesn't deserve any criticism. You're not puttin' that down, are you? What I'm saying?

JH:Yeah. I thought you knew it was on!

NK:Oh. Well, I wouldn't want to publicize the fact that I was assisting this woman. [I turn tape recorder off briefly, as I think Mr. Karchmer wants it off; then turn it back on when it becomes clear that he wants to add a statement.] --I wonder what that guy is doin'? Is he tryin' to impress this woman--so she'll love him or som'p'n? I wouldn't want that, you know, and some people will do that. Not knowing whether I was sincere about anything--or just tryin' to get some publicity--see. [I turn tape recorder off when I think Mr. Karchmer is finished, but turn back on when he begins to talk about living in the U.S.]. So--coming over here, this country's appreciated. Because they've been kicked around over there in some o' those European countries--yeah. I wouldn't say anybody--of our Jewish group is--I've never heard anybody criticize this country--the laws or--anything. Because they've experienced some bad so-called representation over there. And, of course, what is this--where all these Jewish people were killed by--that--what's the name of that -? There's a picture showing by that name. A movie. Hitler was the head of 'em.

JH:Oh, you mean--what, the Holocaust?

NK:Holocaust. That's what I'm thinkin' of. You know, when you hit ninety-three and a half, you half to apologize for a lotta things.

JH:I'll remember that.

NK:I hope you do at ninety-three and a half! Well, I've certainly enjoyed being an American citizen--thanks to my parents that came over here. A fellow [in here] was tellin' me--one time--he made the expression: "We Americans. We Americans." I said, "You may not know it, but I'm included in that group, too. I was born in this country." You know, I'm proud o' the fact: ninety-three and a half years--never been in jail. That shows that I was never picked up as a criminal, and I got away with any--without gettin' arrested! [Laughter.] That's what a fella said to me one day.

Nathan Karchmer
Interview 2
18 January 1993
Springfield, MO

NK=Nathan Karchmer
JH=Julie Henigan

Side One
JH:One thing I didn't ask last time. You arrived here in 19--

NK:'12.

JH:1912. Did you hear anybody talk about the lynchings that had happened in the square?

NK:Yeah--we did. Mm hmm.

JH:Do you remember what people said about them?

NK:No. I didn't hear anybody--criticize. Is that what you mean? But I've had people tell me stories about it--yeah. A lynching on the public square?

JH:Uh huh. 1907, I think it was.

NK:Was it 1907?

JH:Think so.

NK:I don't remember the year.

JH:So that would have about five years before you got here.

NK:Yeah; mm hmm. If it was 1907; yeah. 'Cause we came here in '12.

JH:Do you remember whether there was any kind of--did that make people afraid or anything?

NK:No, I wouldn't say they were afraid; I just had people--

JH:Or angry?

NK:--tell me about what took place. Just--the lynching. Because they were colored. There's an article in the paper. Did you read today's paper about it?

JH:I didn't see that one.

NK:Well, it just referred back to--. Oh, yeah: this is--was today they're celebrating--?

JH:Martin Luther King.
NK:Mar--is it today? Yeah. And they incidentally mentioned, too: that that's what happened with the--. Said that we've come a long way since then. I don't know whether to call it a long ways or not. There's still--some criticism and difference about colored people. Yeah. Listen: there is about Jews, too. Well, one of our magazines stated, I think, there were about three or three and a half million- in this country--that are anti-Jew. Yeah. Besides referring to how many there are in Europe.

JH:Three and a half million--what?--members of groups that were anti--?

NK:Anti-Semitism. Yeah.

JH:Do you remember a cross being burned in the '30s?

NK:Here?

JH:In front of the synagogue?

NK:No, I don't recall any--a cross burned. But I know that there has been some markings on the building--at different times; I don't know what year.

JH:Graffiti?

NK:What do you mean?

JH:Just words, or what?

NK:Oh, different remarks, there. I recall one of 'em: "dirty Jew." Or- let's see--what else was it I--? Oh, I don't make it a point to remember those things.

JH:Right.

NK:But--yeah, we've--our building was marked up several times. In past years. I don't remember what year, but--. Is that one o' your questions?

JH:Yeah.

NK:Have you talked to either one of the Lotven boys? Isadore--or Jake?

JH:Isadore.

NK:Yeah. Did you ask him that question?

JH:He told me that the cross had been burned in the '30s.

NK:That so? Well, his brother--Jake--has looked after the building for a number of years--and still is.

JH:Jake or Hyman?

NK:Oh, wait a minute--Hyman.

JH:Hyman.

NK:Hyman. Yeah.

JH:Yeah, I'm gonna talk to them again.

NK:So he can prob'ly give you that information.

JH:Right. Do you know anything about the formation of the Reform group? That was in about 1893, so that was quite a bit before you came.

NK:Well--oh, yeah. Well, naturally, I wouldn't know anything about that. But when we came here, they were beginning to talk about--getting together with the Orthodox Jews. At that time. And my Dad was instrumental in talkin' to these different people who were Reform- also. He wasn't necessarily tryin' to get anything out of them there -as to their attitude or anything. But my Dad was very friendly; he wanted to make friends, so he got around. So, I know he got around talkin' to 'em, because there was several of 'em in the Re--. One on the square was--oh, let's see--a clothing business.

JH:Rubenstein's.

NK:No, Rubenstein was one of 'em, but--who?

JH:Marx?

NK:Marx.

JH:Levy?

NK:No, on the public square, there was--I can't think of their name. Anyhow, that was just one of the persons that he

was--made it a point to talk to.

NK:No, Netter was one of 'em. But, no, Netter wasn't on the square? Hmm mm.

JH:Oh, okay. Barth's?

NK:Barth! That's the one. Barth. You got a better memory than I have. Yeah. Well, as I understand, they were not organized here when we came here.

JH:What, the Orthodox?

NK:No, the Reform group.

JH:The Reform--were not organized?

NK:I don't think they were organized. That's where they differed from our--Ortho--. The Orthodox, there, believed in prayer, you know- and going to synagogue. And the Reform alleviates those--I would say--religious--. Not a Reform--the Re--I call 'em religious Reform, there. They're not really Reform; they were--just their own ideas there. They just didn't care about goin' to church; and--they had no rabbi here. And they--it seemed like they were just waiting for somebody to organize 'em. They were not concerned about their religion, to me, it seemed.

JH:Apparently they used to meet in the Elks Lodge sometimes. Have service--

NK:Who gave you that information?

JH:It's in this--let's see if I can find where it is. [Reading from Ernest Jacob's "Fifty Years of Jewish Life in Springfield, Missouri"] "Services were conducted in rented halls."

NK:What halls?

JH:Rented halls. "One in Elks Arcade and another in Martin's Music Hall."

NK:Who gave you that information?

JH:This is by Rabbi Jacob--written for the anniversary celebration: he wrote this for that.

NK:1943. Where'd you get that?

JH:Hyman Lotven.

NK:That so? Well.

JH:He had a copy, and he xeroxed it for me. But you don't remember that? No?

NK:Well, I remember that rabbi: yeah. Somebody else there--. It just seemed to me that the Reform--what few Reform Jewish people that were here--were not organized. Apparently they were waiting for some--for a leader: a rabbi, see. Because I know that when they talked about bringin' a rabbi here, there was quite a gathering together. They were interested in that. They never had any leader, you know. So.

JH:Was that before they got Rabbi Richter?

NK:Mmm--well, was--let's see, was--?

JH:I think he was the first--

NK:Was he the first one--Richter?

JH:That's what this says: says he was the first full-time.

NK:First one. Yeah, well, before he came here, they were instrumental, of course, in--as--some of 'em who were interested in bringin' him here. Yeah.

JH:Well, it also says that your father was--talks about Shaare Zedick "under the devoted leadership of Benjamin Karchmer."

NK:Yeah, that's my Dad. Yeah, he could perform. He could perform--not as a rabbi, there. He would take a rabbi's place, there; but I mean he wasn't educated as a rabbi--as a teacher. A rabbi is a teacher. See.

JH:Did he act as president?

NK:My Dad?

JH:Yeah.

NK:Yeah, my Dad acted as president. My Dad also acted as a leader in- organizing meetings--and services, also. My Dad knew what the services were--the Jewish services were, see? Like Passover services. We had a--oh, New Year's services; yeah. And several different services along that line. And my Dad there performed as the leader before a rabbi came here. Mm hmm.

JH:You say he talked to some o' the members of the Reform.

NK:Oh, yeah!

JH:What was his idea? Why was he doing that?

NK:Well, I have an idea his--idea of getting them together--see? But my Dad liked to visit people. It didn't make any difference who they were; he just liked to visit 'em. But while he was visiting, why, he used to--he'd say, "Why don't we get together?" There was differences in the Reform and Orthodox Jews. Some of 'em there are very profound in their belief. You talk to them about a--an Orthodox about a Reform: unh uh, nothin' doin'. Or you talk to a Reform about an Orthodox: no, they wasn't interested. But my Dad realized that these people were all human beings; they had ideas; and that there was some good in every person. I can say that about my Dad.

JH:Did he organize any social events?

NK:Well, not that I recall, there. Of course, we have--in our Jewish services--we have some social events, there. One thing is getting together, you know, for--the New Year? It was always--talk had got together between the members there: what the New Year was, and what it's for, and how we should be--act. And during the--let's see, around Christmastime, there, we have a service called Chanukkah. You heard o' that? All right. Now, that's a--really a--. Well, it's a religious service; but that's an organization--or rather a holiday- for--a celebration. Yeah. Passover was another one. That was a celebration that--celebrating the--not the emancipation; that's not the word they use. Getting out of Egypt. And they used to celebrate, you know, as a--made a celebration out of it. In addition to- religious services.
JH:So would people get together then to--. How would they celebrate besides the services?

NK:Well, they just--I'd say, something to eat. [Laughs.] Have parties.

JH:In the homes?

NK:Yeah, in the home--and at the church, too. Uh huh. Some people would have it at their home after church services, and a- celebration there. Why, it wasn't all a religious program. It was celebration that their ancestors left the--slavery: there was really slavery in Egypt, see--that time. And, of course, I recall that--you know, some Jewish people had a pretty tough life where they came from--in Russia--and Germany. And they used to talk about this country: about this really was a saviour--a saviour organization- this country. In other words, people were entitled to live as they please; they were not abused. I recall that. Yeah, they held this country there--very highly. And, of course, I could say they do; but they make no effort to do that now--where they did at that time. He'd say, "Well, we suffered there, but we're all right here now." And that isn't--wasn't brought out there, because most of Jewish people are American born. See? This is our country just as well as anybody else's.
JH:Did people celebrate some of the other holidays, like--I'm not sure if I pronounce this right--Shavuot?

NK:I don't know what you're--

JH:I think it's in May or June.

NK:Oh, yeah, there's different parts o' the country that--. It was mostly held in foreign countries, there, by these Jews. When they came here, these people all became Americans. Yeah. Their problems that they had in the Old Country there were eliminated. Never talked about: they wanted to get rid of it.

JH:Were all the holidays observed, or were some that--?

NK:Here? You mean the Jewish holidays?

JH:Uh huh.

NK:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Most all of 'em were; yeah.

JH:Was your father--did he help organize Shaare Zedick--incorporate it?

NK:Oh, yeah. Yeah, he was very much interested in organizing--getting together. Oh, yeah. Irrespective of--. Of course, my Dad came from a family of Orthodox--see? But it didn't make any difference to him. He held no--nothin' against the Reform. He would let them believe as they want, he used to say--as they want to. Just the same as we do, he said.

JH:Well, was there a lot of socializing of all the Reform and the Orthodox together?

NK:No, I wouldn't say--I don't recall that there was--that time. O' course, you know, when we first came here, I was twelve years old -see? And at thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, on up to in the twenties, there, why, I didn't take any part in any social affairs, if there were--see? But I know I wasn't--I don't recall being invited to any of 'em there, and I don't recall any social affairs going on. Except right after services in the synagogue--see.

JH:Did your father want to make people feel they were part of a Jewish community, though--do you think?

NK:Oh, yes. Yeah. My Dad was a--you can't use the term "religious" on that part, because he was--. Anybody that's real religious in our--in Jewry--there's certain days that they don't work. On Saturdays, they don't perform at all. My Dad didn't observe it, because he was in business, and he felt like he had to have his business open there to make a living. After all, he had five kids. And I would say that there was a number of things that real religious people observed that my Dad didn't open--. Well, he didn't necessarily agree with 'em, you see--I mean, disagree with 'em; but he didn't observe them, because -the matter of his business.

JH:Was it hard to keep kosher here?

NK:No. No, it wasn't here, because I recall that my mother used to order fowl and meat from St. Louis. See? And then, at some later date--I don't recall the year--there was what's called a shohet: a fella that looks after--he goes to the re--a shohet goes to the--where they kill cattle.

JH:Slaughterhouse?

NK:Slaughterhouse: yeah, you might call it. And what they mean by keepin' kosher is--this fella--the word kosher means "clean"--in English. And his job was to go see that the animals were not--oh- they were clean; there was no disease there--[attached to the meat]. And his job was--take a sample of it. And when he did and he found everything all right--even with chickens, see? And with chickens, there--we never--where they take an axe and cut their head off. We never believed in that. They used to take a knife and--cut their throat. Kill 'em.

JH:Did people continue to observe the kosher laws?

NK:Well, I would say that the Orthodox people there--most of 'em- would. But it just depended on how they were raised. I know that there's Jewish people--Orthodox and Reform, both there--that will go to a restaurant and eat anything. Now, I don't. I observe the kosher, because I know what it is; it means--I know what it's all about: it's cleanliness, see. And my mother always kept a kosher house. Of course, she came from a--her family kept kosher, and she believed in that; and all of our kids--five of us kids there--observed it, too. Because we thought it was healthy; it was clean. Not necessarily from a religious standpoint, see.

JH:How long was your father leader of the congregation?

NK:Well, I wouldn't say that he was a leader--an exclusive leader: no. No, he assisted there on anything that they brought up. They had meetings together, and if anything was brought up, why, he always took a part in it. And he always pushed the observance, too--of it.

JH:Who were some of the other important people?
NK:Here? Well, I would the Lotven family--Mr. Lotven was one of 'em. Of course, in the Old Country--he came from Russia; so did my Dad. They believed in kosher--see. And when they came here, they observed that--in this country. And they found out it was a job to do it. And if they couldn't get it here, why, they used to order from St. Louis or Kansas City. They had meat markets there, and--it was called "kosher meat market." Mm hmm. They had--you might say, how do we know that their meats were kosher? It was because they had a--let's see, what was the Jewish word for that? The man that took the part o' that. That's all he did was--he was at the places where they killed the cattle; and his job was to see that everything was--clean.

JH:And did he also slaughter them?

NK:Yeah, he did the slaughtering, too. And there were prayers said at the time--of the slaughtering. My Dad--when we first came here- my Dad took--let's see--see where this--. I'd say he went to school; they didn't have any school here. He took instructions from what's called a shohet--that's a man that looks after that; he took instructions from him--teachings--so that he could do that--see? And that was allowed religiously. If you took those instructions and passed, then you could do that yourself. I remember my Dad used to kill the chickens. He never--he'd take 'em and cut their throat. He never bothered about cows; 'cause he was in business--he didn't have the time to do that. But we used to order our meat from St. Louis or Kansas City.

JH:So would he just do that for the family?

NK:Oh, yeah, just for the family. Oh, if anybody--I wouldn't know if anybody solicited him there. They knew that my

Dad--that he took that training, see, for that purpose there. I don't know that they asked him; but if they did, why, he'd take care of 'em -without any charge. It was just for our family--mainly.

NK:No. I don't. He wasn't in this town. He was in St. Louis, I think.

JH:So there wasn't one who lived here?

NK:There was one later on--yeah. And, of course, my Dad used to keep up with the regulations, there, with this fellow. See? But my Dad didn't do any work for anybody; that was his job. Just for our own family.

JH:Now, you were about to say who some o' the other important--well, leaders--along with your father--would have been.

NK:Well, let's see. Well, they're long gone. I know there were--a number of people; he wasn't the only one that stood for organization and--as a leader. Oh--see, I can't think of the--can't think of the names. It's been a long time.

JH:Why did the Orthodox congregation wait till 1918 to incorporate?

NK:Well, after all, there was just a small amount of people here. We have a--at services, we have what's called a "minyan": you have to have a number of people to organize--or to perform a service--see? Well--if I recall there, there was very few people here. And, of course, the Reform people did not believe that was necessary- there. But the Orthodox did. In order to have services, they had to have a minyan. You couldn't--and that was ten people.

JH:Did it have to be men? Ten men?

NK:Yeah. Yeah. Women were not recognized for that purpose there.

JH:Did the men and women sit apart from each other?

NK:No. Oh--oh, yes! The Orthodox did, yeah. Uh huh.

JH:Did that change?

NK:Yeah. That changed there. There was very little of that done here. Because, naturally, they were women; they were mothers and wives: they were respected. And we didn't feel like they oughtta be separated; so eventually they all got together, and they admitted women there in the services--as well as men.

JH:Admitted them--I mean, they were always able to come to the services?

NK:Oh, they were able to come, but they had to--they couldn't sit together with the men. Had to be separate. [Unintelligible.] I remember that when I was in St. Louis: same thing there. I don't know how that went on; I was twelve years old at the time. But I know that they practiced that.

JH:Were there other things women couldn't do?

NK:Well, they couldn't perform as what I told you there--the shohet- lookin' after the animals and chickens--stuff like that; no. They could go ahead and--after it was all done-- they could go ahead and cook and--so on. But they had to keep--the Orthodox had to keep separate plates. Anybody ever tell you that?

JH:Dairy and meat?

NK:Meat and--yeah--from dairy, yeah. Kept separate dishes. And you couldn't mix 'em. Now, I know where our family kept that.

JH:Did you carry on doing that? Did you continue all that time?

NK:Oh, yes. Yeah. Even today. Even today, that was a reflection on me- to the point that I can't see dairy products mixed with meat. Can't do it.

JH:Do you remember any Hebrew school teachers here?

NK:No. I don't. But some of the members would perform. Yeah. On Saturday; not Sunday. Saturday was the main one.

JH:So there was always some kind of instruction, then--even when there wasn't a regular teacher?

NK:Oh, yeah. Yeah. They took the Hebrew bible and taught from that.

JH:Just boys, or did girls also attend?

NK:Oh, yeah: girls and boys. Yeah. Were students. I know, a couple o' years I even took part--when we didn't have any--. Well, it was up to the members, see. They wanted their children to learn about the Hebrew religion, see? And we had volunteers that would come in. Teach what we knew. Which wasn't much! [Laughs.]

JH:Well, this ["Fifty Years"] mentions Miss Hattie Cohn.

NK:Hattie Cohn?

JH:And Herman Rosenwasser.

NK:I don't remember any of 'em. Well, what about that?

JH:They were teachers, it said: "Temple Israel organized religious instruction." Oh, that must have earlier. That might have been the Reform group; I'm not sure.

NK:Yeah. Must've been, 'cause I don't remember any. When a rabbi came here, he became the teacher--see. That is, among the Orthodox. He used to teach.

JH:So--Richter and Jacob would--

NK:Yeah. Yeah, they all taught.

JH:How was Temple Israel--the synagogue--financed?

NK:Oh, well--we got together--I mean, the Orthodox and Reform--and charged membership--see. Just like they do today. We had expenses, there, of different kinds. When we employed a rabbi, why, he was paid--as a teacher--and a minister.

JH:How did you meet expenses before then? I mean, there must have been some expenses even before you had the synagogue? Like, to rent the hall.

NK:Well, before the synagogue, we used to meet up there in

the--on Walnut Street, there--the Masonic Building, I think they called it. Yeah. Well, we'd all pitch in out of our own pocket there. And pay the rent--which wasn't much. We used to meet there on Friday nights. See, that's four times a month. So.

NK:Well, once in a great while, if there was an important holiday, we would--again, [that] came on a Saturday--we would meet on Saturday, yeah. But everybody was busy, there, during the week otherwise, see. They were busy or working, and--we just couldn't get away. That was an exception there. But on Friday nights, we all got together. That is, the Reform--one separate, and the Reform separate.
JH:Isadore Lotven mentioned--in the '30s, I think, maybe--that there was an organization to help transients--people coming through who didn't have any money.

NK:Yeah.

JH:What was that? He said you were involved in that.

NK:Mm hmm. Yeah--I was--I was the leader of it there--that time was. Any of 'em that came through here, broke or hungry, why, they were instructed to call me. And I'd help 'em out with a meal--or even to the point--if it wasn't too much--fares--on buses, there--see. And -where did that money come from? We instructed the members of our organization there to--help out. Only time we asked 'em was when we needed money. It wasn't an organization that you had to contribute to every month or every year--once a year: huh uh--no. I handled it. Somebody came in here--claimed they was Jewish--I could tell from their name whether they were Jewish or not--and they were broke, comin' through here--hungry; I'd see that they had a meal--and I'd get 'em a ticket--we used to get a special discount here from bus companies. For a charitable case, you know. And when I spent some money, why, I'd appeal to the rest of 'em there--when we got together--and they'd kick in with--help. Wasn't any strict organization, where you paid so much every month or every week. It was just when we needed it, that's all. Just a transient organization--you know.

JH:How long did it last?

NK:Oh--[chuckles]--I guess that I must 'a handled it for--maybe eight or ten years--myself.

JH:Mainly during the Depression, then?

NK:Well, I don't recall that there was--. We've had depressions all along. But they were not publicized like they are today. Yeah. If business was bad, that was a depression. People were not buying- in the retail business, they were not buying there. They didn't call it a depression; it was--they used the word "dull": "business is dull."

JH:But when you had this organization, was that mainly in the '30s? Or what period?

NK:No, that was later than the '30s, there. It was started--prob'ly started in the '30s. O' course--we had very few people there that were considered transients, you know. It got to where--as the population grew, there 'as more

people--see? But I would say I handled it maybe for--ten or fifteen years. I didn't take any extra time, necessarily. If there was a case, I'd always ask 'em to make their way to my office there--ask somebody where Karchmer is. See, we were at our location now- for seventy years.

NK:No. Oh, well! I'll tell you, [the] Jewish people there mostly were in the--in that business: in the clothing business or--. And a transient, I would say, would find his way to--. He'd inquire, you know: who's--what's the name o' the fella in the clothing business? And when he got their name, he made his way to them; and he asked them, "Who can help me?" And they'd call me: "I got a man here that's a transient--needs some help. He's hungry. He needs a--oh, a ticket--to go to St. Louis or someplace, or to Kansas City." And, o' course, when that came up about the ticket, I had to go out and get it, because I got it at a discount, see--for 'em. But they made it- they found out who was--who would help 'em. There was no question about that.

Side Two
NK:I recall when one fella there was--on the square--was in the clothing business. Said, "There was a fella came into my store, said he needed some help. "Well," he said, "I can't afford to buy him a ticket." O' course, these guys would highjack their way on the--you know, they would--[mooch rides]--from people traveling, you know, and--flag 'em down. And if they were not able to be helped, see, when they got to Springfield, we got advertized among the--those people there--that needed help there: "Well, when you get to Springfield, you get ahold o' Mr. Karchmer"--see? So it automatically made an organization. We were not necessarily named an organization.

JH:What was the Jewish Community Fund?

NK:Oh. It's going on now--as a matter o' fact. I'm the chairman of it. We help out different organizations. Hospitals--that is, Jewish hospitals. Oh, and different organizations that were--. Learning--a learning organization, you know, where they need help; that's goin' on today. And we just ask people--I solicit these people there, through the mail, for this organization. And they help me out; they send me a check. And I have a bank account for it. Somebody comes through here and needs some help. And it's not only that; but we patronize national organizations--see--that help the poor; hospitalize; maybe -oh, these--let's see, how would they call it in English? Where they learn--a Jewish organization.

JH:Yeshivas?

NK:Well, the yeshiva is one of 'em, yeah. Who told you that?

JH:I've read about them.

NK:Yeah, yeshiva is a student organization, uh huh. And I automatically -I got a list of 'em--I send the money automatically.

JH:Is there a committee?

NK:No. Well, this committee there is Hyman Lotven and I. Yeah. He handles the bank account. And I'm the chairman; I get out letters. And he gets out a letter, too, when [we] need help. And it's not a membership organization. We just solicit our own people--the Jewish people.

JH:So do the two of you decide how much to send to what?

NK:No. Oh--oh, yeah; yeah. Yeah. O' course, in past years, originally, I don't know how it started. We gave 'em what we could. O' course, those people there that needed help, they would write back and say: we received your check for so and so; we would appreciate it if you can increase that, see. They were always asking for an increase- see? Needed to have more help. That's how that--that's where we got our ideas of givin' 'em a certain amount o' money. And, oh, I guess for the past ten years, it's prob'ly been the same thing.

JH:Well, it says it started with you and Louis Barth and Minnie Hirsch and Irving Schwab.

NK:That we started it?

JH:That's what it says here. I don't know.

NK:I don't recall that. I know all o' those people. We used to get together, I know. But there was no particular--meeting--[a run o' meetings there]--of different items there. We'd just talk about different organizations: what they need and what happened; and, o' course, year after year, we know what we gave 'em. There's a--for instance, there's a--Jewish people coming from Russia--from Germany-- that needed help--see? All right? There was organizations created for them: national organizations. And we'd contribute to that national organization--see. We don't have any- for a number of years, we don't have any local--people comin' in here that are--I call it "bumming their way"--whether they're bumming, or whether they're--actually were needed moving from one town to another, or to their family or--som'p'n. But we know from year to year who to give to.

JH:So the Fund covers national and local needs, then.

NK:Oh, yeah. Well, we have no local--really--no local needs.

JH:You mentioned hospitals, though.

NK:Yeah.

JH:Is that local hospitals?

NK:No; no, not from our Jewish organization. We, in particular, can give to local--see; but not as an organization--see--here. The other day, when this storm occurred down there in the south--where was that?

JH:Louisiana?

NK:Louisiana, yeah. All right? Naturally, you heard about it; I heard about it. I contributed--to the Red Cross here--I contributed a hundred dollars, personally. We have no organization here to give that; I gave it personally. And I told them I want that--them to help that group down there in the south--see. Whether they did or not, I don't know; but that was my instructions. I guess they did--'cause the Red Cross is everywhere.

JH:I want to ask you about a personal story. Isadore Lotven mentioned something about--I guess under F.D.R.--you know they were workin' on, I think, Fassnight Creek. W.P.A., maybe? And he said that your wife used to serve coffee to the workers? Do you remember that?

NK:Well, I wasn't familiar with it--with where she was contributing. My wife was very active in different organizations. See.

JH:Well, what Mr. Lotven was saying was she was doing this--it sounded like out of her kitchen--she was just giving coffee to workers who--.

NK:Out of the home, you mean?

JH:Yeah.

NK:I don't recall that. I know she used to go to different organizations and help 'em out with money--see, with donations, there--for food; and it would include coffee--see?

JH:When were you president of the congregation?

NK:When was I president? I don't remember the year. I can't give you the year.

JH:Do you know how long? One year, you say?

NK:One year. One year is all I can remember--yeah.

JH:Do you remember any contributions you made?

NK:My idea in belonging to an organization is not to take charge of it myself: let somebody else get in there, too--who could perform, see--there. So, from that I would say I wasn't in that over a year- yeah.
JH:Do you remember what you did during that time--as president?

NK:As president? Well, there was several things there. We didn't have a committee for each different thing--that had to be done there. In other words, there was--the main thing was the financial matter. Members don't always pay on time. You've gotta go after 'em, see- "We need the money." And--that was your job: come across. And, of course, if there was a rabbi or a teacher that was needed, that was part o' the job there: to communicate with the national organization--see. And, if there was anything needed for the organization, why--books--or maybe furniture or som'p'n like that. Yeah. I know one o' my main things was to--I didn't do this alone- was to look after our association of children--[and] learning. And, o' course, I--I spent a little time teaching myself. And, even after I was president, why, I continued that. 'Course I was educated both in the English part of it as well as the Hebrew part of it--see? See? We made it a point there to teach the kids to learn Hebrew--to read it. 'Cause the--in our synagogue, they--. O' course, later dates there, they started printing the English--. You ever see one of our prayer books? It's in Hebrew on one side and English on the other side. Oh, a number of things that came up there. Sometimes you needed--books--different supplies there. It was one o' the jobs that the president had--to look after that. If you found a family there that came here that was not sending their children to school--to Hebrew school--they were solicited: "Come on in." "We can't afford -." "It isn't necessary. Send 'em in; we'll take care o' that. When you're able, why, we want you to pay just like anybody else." And, of course, people, after a while, why, they would pay; they didn't want to feel that that was a charitable deal--see? They wanted to pay for their children's learning. Oh, there was a lot--being president, there--a lot came up, there. You naturally had to look after the Board o' Directors--call meetings--so on.

JH:Do you remember who was rabbi during your stint?

NK:I don't. We had a rabbi at the time, I know. But that wasn't the job of the president. That was the Board o' Directors, see.

JH:Oh, to choose them, you mean?

NK:Choose--oh, yeah! To get a rabbi, because--you had to pay him. And -it was up to the Board o' Directors to look after finances, too.

JH:You mentioned the idea of girls as well as boys going to Hebrew school. Do they do bat mitzvahs here?
NK:Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. They still do.

JH:When did that come in?

NK:Oh, I can't recall the year it started. But then, I think when our rabbi came here, that was--that's his job: to see that a--boy was bar mitzvah and a girl was bas mitzvah, see. And it continued that way. That's the rabbi's job--to look after that. And we practice it yet. Still practice that. As a matter of fact, last Saturday was a--that was a bas mitzvah. Mm hmm. Letters are sent out to the members, so--who's gonna have either a bar mitzvah or a bas mitzvah--one o' the two. Asking you to attend.

JH:Last time you talked about being active in service groups--like the muscular dystrophy and B'nai B'rith. Were there others that you were active in? Or social groups?

NK:Well, o' course, I was active in our own organization, you see--as president; and before I was president, and after I was president, I still remained active: there was always som'p'n to do--in an organization, see. Let's see, here? Besides the Masonic organization--and you mentioned the other one?

JH:You were in the B'nai B'rith and the muscular dystrophy.

NK:Muscular dystrophy, yeah. I oughtta remember that, because I was one of three that organized it--here. And, o' course, contributed money to 'em just the same. Even now. I haven't been to a meeting- oh, I guess, for--maybe a couple o' years. But I still--when there's a drive--a national drive--made, I still contribute--'cause I think it's needed. That's not a religious organization.

JH:No, but it's a service organization.

NK:Yeah. Or anything that comes up there. I'm besieged--as well as other businessmen are besieged--by different organizations that help. The other day I got a call from a fella--I don't remember his name. But--I've been helping out the ex-serviceman's organization- who are ill.

JH:The V.A.?

NK:Well, I don't remember the organization; but this fella said--called up and he says, "I represent so-and-so there." He says, "Every year I know you give us a donation. Can you help us out this year?" I said, "Certainly." So--there's different organizations that--I can't remember names. Salvation Army's another one. That local--what do you call it? It helps out.
JH:United Way?

NK:Yeah, United Way. Yeah. Oh, I have men and women call up--they solicit all businesses, you know--too; not only me. And--I don't call it help. These people are doing it--are helping. All they want is some money--that they have to spend. Well--ask me another question--that I don't know. [Laughs.]

JH:When you were elected, how did the election process go? Did they have a primary?

NK:What do you mean? In our church?

JH:No, when you were elected mayor.

NK:Oh, yeah. Yeah, had a primary. Yeah. Mm hmm. In other words, you gotta have--in order to find out who's running for that office--you gotta have a primary to get a list of people, see. And, of course, not here locally, but nationally, it's the Democratic and the Reform- Democratic and Republican. Yeah. No, we didn't have any--that time. There was no organization. I never had any organization. That was just my own idea there: that--I wondered, how would the voters feel towards me?

JH:I think you said there were eight running?

NK:Yeah, eight.

JH:And did they narrow that down to two? Or what?

NK:Yeah, they narrowed that down to--three, I think. Three or four. I'm tryin' to think when they--I was talkin' to a newspaper reporter, and he told me I came in first, and number two was so many votes. I had so many votes; number two, so many; and number three; and I think he mentioned four. The final election.

JH:One of 'em was the chief of police, wasn't he?

NK:Yeah.

JH:What was his name?

NK:[Chuckles.] I can't remember it. You know, I never mixed in politics. [Tape recorder off while Mr. Karchmer looks for newspaper article. Begins to talk about Lester E. Cox.] [He was in the] automobile supply business--before he--yeah. He got an idea of takin' over Burge. He said they needed help. So that's how Cox started, see. It started as Burge Hospital. I don't know what I did with that. I'll find it sometime. But--he came to me one day, and he said--he was gonna--he was interested in helping Burge Hospital; they needed help. And he says, "I'm figurin' on takin' it over." And he says, "I need help there--in the campaign to raise some money." He says, "I want you to help me." So I did. [Chuckles.] And--raised some money there to take over Burge Hospital. And--I never went any further than that. I was in business--I couldn't spare time to get away; but I did, to help him out. And--so, that's the connection I had with Cox Hospital. I felt like I helped them get started. Well, that all the questions you're gonna ask me that I don't know?

JH:Well, I've about run out of ideas for questions, but if anything else comes to mind--.

NK:Oh, I think you've got a lotta information on the Jewish organization--on the Jewish group that started here in Springfield. Yeah.

JH:Well, it's real interesting, because it must be so different from, like if you were living in New York in an area where there were loads of Jewish families around. And here everyone is spread apart; and it must be a very different kind of--

NK:Oh, yeah, yeah; they've got several million Jews there--I know. Seemed like everybody that came from the Old Country, landed in New York! [Laughs.] For some reason. Well, they had relatives there, or friends or somebody; so they landed there. But--well, of course, my Dad--he landed in St. Louis--when he came over from the Old Country.

JH:Was that because he wanted to join your brother?

NK:Oh, my Dad's brother?

JH:Yeah.

NK:No.

JH:No?

NK:No, he just went to visit him. I don't know if his brother was--I forget--

JH:Denver?

NK:Yeah. But, I mean, the business that he was in. I think he was in the furniture business. Yeah.

JH:He wanted to visit your brother first, though? Was that the idea?

NK:When he landed in this country, he knew his brother was here. Yeah, so, he went there that time. I look back there: at that time, we didn't have buses and planes and so on. In order to get to some distant city, I guess you had to go--you had to--bum your way through.

JH:Well, they had trains, didn't they?

NK:Oh, well--yeah, they had trains there, but I mean--. I call it bummin' your way through. It isn't like today. He had a hardship a gettin' to see his brother, I know. And he didn't have much money to spend, either. He just came over from the Old Country. I wonder how some of 'em got by. Came over here broke. O' course, we have several Jewish organizations that have helped Jews that came over here--to this country.

JH:Did he ever talk to you about how he got out to the midwest?

NK:About how? About him? Yeah. Yeah, he has told us [something] about that. But years ago, I guess I wasn't too much interested there--about that. Today I realize some o' the hardships there that they had--at the time. They didn't have any money--some of 'em. Problems of eating--you know. And people from the Old Country believe in kosher; you know what that is. And when they came to this country, it was, I guess, hard for 'em to--observe it. And, of course, I look back there: I was more interested in what my Dad did. He brought over three brothers from the Old Country--where they used to live, of course. And put 'em in business. And how he put 'em in business, I don't realize. He wasn't a wealthy man. I guess he told 'em, "Here you are: here's so money, and you get by, now--like I did."

JH:How many children did he have? Have many brothers and sisters did you have?

NK:Me? I? One brother and two--let's see--three sisters. There was five of us. I've got my--the oldest sister is the only one living now, besides me.

JH:How many children did you have? Or do you have?

NK:I?

JH:Yes.

NK:I had two. One living. I had a little boy who passed away about- last March. He was a lawyer--here. Billy--Billy, we called him. [Points to photograph on wall.] That's his picture. [I ask about other photos.] You know I was married twice. Betty was one of 'em.

JH:Your son who's living--

NK:My son?

JH:No, I don't have a son that's living. My son passed away. He was sixty-five years old; he passed away last March.

JH:So you have a daughter.

NK:Have a daughter that's living; yeah.

JH:Is she in town?

NK:No--oh, yeah! Her husband practically took over my business. I still go there, all right; but he practically runs it. They're away on a vacation in California now. They go away for three months every year. I come down and do what I can--help 'em. This fella was in the--he was a shoe salesman--her husband. They married, and he went overseas--in the army. And when he got back, why, he came to me, and I said, "Well, what are you gonna do? What kind o' work are you gonna do?" He said, "Well," he said, "I had colored troops--Negro troops." And he said, "My main man who was a sear--not a sergeant. Huh! What's the main man in the army?

JH:Second--

NK:Lieutenant! He was a lieutenant there. And he says, "He seemed to be a pretty smart fellow." Said, "We're figurin' on goin' in the--I was figurin' on goin' in--and opening up a magazine." I talked him out of it. Did I tell you this story? I said, "Look, you're gonna start a new magazine--that's not known. It's gonna take a long time for acceptance; and it might go and it might not. What do you know about magazines? You're not [experienced] in that." He was a shoe salesman when he went in the army. Oh, I said, "I'll tell you: I have a--. My brother was getting out of the service--my brother. And he indicated that he wanted to get into som'p'n else besides our business. That leaves me alone." Said, "I wouldn't want you to work for me. I'd want you as an interested person in the business, so you could use your mind just as well--and what little money I have." He said, "I don't need the money. Here's a financial statement. I'm fairly well fixed." "But," I said, "You got about twelve thousand dollars in your--." This boy didn't smoke; he didn't drink; he didn't gamble. When he got his military check, he used to send it to me; I put it in the bank for him. So, I said, "I know what you got. Take your money. I don't want anybody to work for

me--I wouldn't want you to work for me. You have an interest in the business. Take y