NK=Nathan Karchmer
JH=Julie Henigan

Side One
JH:One thing I didn't ask last time. You arrived here in 19--

NK:'12.

JH:1912. Did you hear anybody talk about the lynchings that had happened in the square?

NK:Yeah--we did. Mm hmm.

JH:Do you remember what people said about them?

NK:No. I didn't hear anybody--criticize. Is that what you mean? But I've had people tell me stories about it--yeah. A lynching on the public square?

JH:Uh huh. 1907, I think it was.

NK:Was it 1907?

JH:Think so.

NK:I don't remember the year.

JH:So that would have about five years before you got here.

NK:Yeah; mm hmm. If it was 1907; yeah. 'Cause we came here in '12.

JH:Do you remember whether there was any kind of--did that make people afraid or anything?

NK:No, I wouldn't say they were afraid; I just had people--

JH:Or angry?

NK:--tell me about what took place. Just--the lynching. Because they were colored. There's an article in the paper. Did you read today's paper about it?

JH:I didn't see that one.

NK:Well, it just referred back to--. Oh, yeah: this is--was today they're celebrating--?

JH:Martin Luther King.
NK:Mar--is it today? Yeah. And they incidentally mentioned, too: that that's what happened with the--. Said that we've come a long way since then. I don't know whether to call it a long ways or not. There's still--some criticism and difference about colored people. Yeah. Listen: there is about Jews, too. Well, one of our magazines stated, I think, there were about three or three and a half million- in this country--that are anti-Jew. Yeah. Besides referring to how many there are in Europe.

JH:Three and a half million--what?--members of groups that were anti--?

NK:Anti-Semitism. Yeah.

JH:Do you remember a cross being burned in the '30s?

NK:Here?

JH:In front of the synagogue?

NK:No, I don't recall any--a cross burned. But I know that there has been some markings on the building--at different times; I don't know what year.

JH:Graffiti?

NK:What do you mean?

JH:Just words, or what?

NK:Oh, different remarks, there. I recall one of 'em: "dirty Jew." Or- let's see--what else was it I--? Oh, I don't make it a point to remember those things.

JH:Right.

NK:But--yeah, we've--our building was marked up several times. In past years. I don't remember what year, but--. Is that one o' your questions?

JH:Yeah.

NK:Have you talked to either one of the Lotven boys? Isadore--or Jake?

JH:Isadore.

NK:Yeah. Did you ask him that question?

JH:He told me that the cross had been burned in the '30s.

NK:That so? Well, his brother--Jake--has looked after the building for a number of years--and still is.

JH:Jake or Hyman?

NK:Oh, wait a minute--Hyman.

JH:Hyman.

NK:Hyman. Yeah.

JH:Yeah, I'm gonna talk to them again.

NK:So he can prob'ly give you that information.

JH:Right. Do you know anything about the formation of the Reform group? That was in about 1893, so that was quite a bit before you came.

NK:Well--oh, yeah. Well, naturally, I wouldn't know anything about that. But when we came here, they were beginning to talk about--getting together with the Orthodox Jews. At that time. And my Dad was instrumental in talkin' to these different people who were Reform- also. He wasn't necessarily tryin' to get anything out of them there -as to their attitude or anything. But my Dad was very friendly; he wanted to make friends, so he got around. So, I know he got around talkin' to 'em, because there was several of 'em in the Re--. One on the square was--oh, let's see--a clothing business.

JH:Rubenstein's.

NK:No, Rubenstein was one of 'em, but--who?

JH:Marx?

NK:Marx.

JH:Levy?

NK:No, on the public square, there was--I can't think of their name. Anyhow, that was just one of the persons that he

was--made it a point to talk to.

NK:No, Netter was one of 'em. But, no, Netter wasn't on the square? Hmm mm.

JH:Oh, okay. Barth's?

NK:Barth! That's the one. Barth. You got a better memory than I have. Yeah. Well, as I understand, they were not organized here when we came here.

JH:What, the Orthodox?

NK:No, the Reform group.

JH:The Reform--were not organized?

NK:I don't think they were organized. That's where they differed from our--Ortho--. The Orthodox, there, believed in prayer, you know- and going to synagogue. And the Reform alleviates those--I would say--religious--. Not a Reform--the Re--I call 'em religious Reform, there. They're not really Reform; they were--just their own ideas there. They just didn't care about goin' to church; and--they had no rabbi here. And they--it seemed like they were just waiting for somebody to organize 'em. They were not concerned about their religion, to me, it seemed.

JH:Apparently they used to meet in the Elks Lodge sometimes. Have service--

NK:Who gave you that information?

JH:It's in this--let's see if I can find where it is. [Reading from Ernest Jacob's "Fifty Years of Jewish Life in Springfield, Missouri"] "Services were conducted in rented halls."

NK:What halls?

JH:Rented halls. "One in Elks Arcade and another in Martin's Music Hall."

NK:Who gave you that information?

JH:This is by Rabbi Jacob--written for the anniversary celebration: he wrote this for that.

NK:1943. Where'd you get that?

JH:Hyman Lotven.

NK:That so? Well.

JH:He had a copy, and he xeroxed it for me. But you don't remember that? No?

NK:Well, I remember that rabbi: yeah. Somebody else there--. It just seemed to me that the Reform--what few Reform Jewish people that were here--were not organized. Apparently they were waiting for some--for a leader: a rabbi, see. Because I know that when they talked about bringin' a rabbi here, there was quite a gathering together. They were interested in that. They never had any leader, you know. So.

JH:Was that before they got Rabbi Richter?

NK:Mmm--well, was--let's see, was--?

JH:I think he was the first--

NK:Was he the first one--Richter?

JH:That's what this says: says he was the first full-time.

NK:First one. Yeah, well, before he came here, they were instrumental, of course, in--as--some of 'em who were interested in bringin' him here. Yeah.

JH:Well, it also says that your father was--talks about Shaare Zedick "under the devoted leadership of Benjamin Karchmer."

NK:Yeah, that's my Dad. Yeah, he could perform. He could perform--not as a rabbi, there. He would take a rabbi's place, there; but I mean he wasn't educated as a rabbi--as a teacher. A rabbi is a teacher. See.

JH:Did he act as president?

NK:My Dad?

JH:Yeah.

NK:Yeah, my Dad acted as president. My Dad also acted as a leader in- organizing meetings--and services, also. My Dad knew what the services were--the Jewish services were, see? Like Passover services. We had a--oh, New Year's services; yeah. And several different services along that line. And my Dad there performed as the leader before a rabbi came here. Mm hmm.

JH:You say he talked to some o' the members of the Reform.

NK:Oh, yeah!

JH:What was his idea? Why was he doing that?

NK:Well, I have an idea his--idea of getting them together--see? But my Dad liked to visit people. It didn't make any difference who they were; he just liked to visit 'em. But while he was visiting, why, he used to--he'd say, "Why don't we get together?" There was differences in the Reform and Orthodox Jews. Some of 'em there are very profound in their belief. You talk to them about a--an Orthodox about a Reform: unh uh, nothin' doin'. Or you talk to a Reform about an Orthodox: no, they wasn't interested. But my Dad realized that these people were all human beings; they had ideas; and that there was some good in every person. I can say that about my Dad.

JH:Did he organize any social events?

NK:Well, not that I recall, there. Of course, we have--in our Jewish services--we have some social events, there. One thing is getting together, you know, for--the New Year? It was always--talk had got together between the members there: what the New Year was, and what it's for, and how we should be--act. And during the--let's see, around Christmastime, there, we have a service called Chanukkah. You heard o' that? All right. Now, that's a--really a--. Well, it's a religious service; but that's an organization--or rather a holiday- for--a celebration. Yeah. Passover was another one. That was a celebration that--celebrating the--not the emancipation; that's not the word they use. Getting out of Egypt. And they used to celebrate, you know, as a--made a celebration out of it. In addition to- religious services.
JH:So would people get together then to--. How would they celebrate besides the services?

NK:Well, they just--I'd say, something to eat. [Laughs.] Have parties.

JH:In the homes?

NK:Yeah, in the home--and at the church, too. Uh huh. Some people would have it at their home after church services, and a- celebration there. Why, it wasn't all a religious program. It was celebration that their ancestors left the--slavery: there was really slavery in Egypt, see--that time. And, of course, I recall that--you know, some Jewish people had a pretty tough life where they came from--in Russia--and Germany. And they used to talk about this country: about this really was a saviour--a saviour organization- this country. In other words, people were entitled to live as they please; they were not abused. I recall that. Yeah, they held this country there--very highly. And, of course, I could say they do; but they make no effort to do that now--where they did at that time. He'd say, "Well, we suffered there, but we're all right here now." And that isn't--wasn't brought out there, because most of Jewish people are American born. See? This is our country just as well as anybody else's.
JH:Did people celebrate some of the other holidays, like--I'm not sure if I pronounce this right--Shavuot?

NK:I don't know what you're--

JH:I think it's in May or June.

NK:Oh, yeah, there's different parts o' the country that--. It was mostly held in foreign countries, there, by these Jews. When they came here, these people all became Americans. Yeah. Their problems that they had in the Old Country there were eliminated. Never talked about: they wanted to get rid of it.

JH:Were all the holidays observed, or were some that--?

NK:Here? You mean the Jewish holidays?

JH:Uh huh.

NK:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Most all of 'em were; yeah.

JH:Was your father--did he help organize Shaare Zedick--incorporate it?

NK:Oh, yeah. Yeah, he was very much interested in organizing--getting together. Oh, yeah. Irrespective of--. Of course, my Dad came from a family of Orthodox--see? But it didn't make any difference to him. He held no--nothin' against the Reform. He would let them believe as they want, he used to say--as they want to. Just the same as we do, he said.

JH:Well, was there a lot of socializing of all the Reform and the Orthodox together?

NK:No, I wouldn't say--I don't recall that there was--that time. O' course, you know, when we first came here, I was twelve years old -see? And at thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, on up to in the twenties, there, why, I didn't take any part in any social affairs, if there were--see? But I know I wasn't--I don't recall being invited to any of 'em there, and I don't recall any social affairs going on. Except right after services in the synagogue--see.

JH:Did your father want to make people feel they were part of a Jewish community, though--do you think?

NK:Oh, yes. Yeah. My Dad was a--you can't use the term "religious" on that part, because he was--. Anybody that's real religious in our--in Jewry--there's certain days that they don't work. On Saturdays, they don't perform at all. My Dad didn't observe it, because he was in business, and he felt like he had to have his business open there to make a living. After all, he had five kids. And I would say that there was a number of things that real religious people observed that my Dad didn't open--. Well, he didn't necessarily agree with 'em, you see--I mean, disagree with 'em; but he didn't observe them, because -the matter of his business.

JH:Was it hard to keep kosher here?

NK:No. No, it wasn't here, because I recall that my mother used to order fowl and meat from St. Louis. See? And then, at some later date--I don't recall the year--there was what's called a shohet: a fella that looks after--he goes to the re--a shohet goes to the--where they kill cattle.

JH:Slaughterhouse?

NK:Slaughterhouse: yeah, you might call it. And what they mean by keepin' kosher is--this fella--the word kosher means "clean"--in English. And his job was to go see that the animals were not--oh- they were clean; there was no disease there--[attached to the meat]. And his job was--take a sample of it. And when he did and he found everything all right--even with chickens, see? And with chickens, there--we never--where they take an axe and cut their head off. We never believed in that. They used to take a knife and--cut their throat. Kill 'em.

JH:Did people continue to observe the kosher laws?

NK:Well, I would say that the Orthodox people there--most of 'em- would. But it just depended on how they were raised. I know that there's Jewish people--Orthodox and Reform, both there--that will go to a restaurant and eat anything. Now, I don't. I observe the kosher, because I know what it is; it means--I know what it's all about: it's cleanliness, see. And my mother always kept a kosher house. Of course, she came from a--her family kept kosher, and she believed in that; and all of our kids--five of us kids there--observed it, too. Because we thought it was healthy; it was clean. Not necessarily from a religious standpoint, see.

JH:How long was your father leader of the congregation?

NK:Well, I wouldn't say that he was a leader--an exclusive leader: no. No, he assisted there on anything that they brought up. They had meetings together, and if anything was brought up, why, he always took a part in it. And he always pushed the observance, too--of it.

JH:Who were some of the other important people?
NK:Here? Well, I would the Lotven family--Mr. Lotven was one of 'em. Of course, in the Old Country--he came from Russia; so did my Dad. They believed in kosher--see. And when they came here, they observed that--in this country. And they found out it was a job to do it. And if they couldn't get it here, why, they used to order from St. Louis or Kansas City. They had meat markets there, and--it was called "kosher meat market." Mm hmm. They had--you might say, how do we know that their meats were kosher? It was because they had a--let's see, what was the Jewish word for that? The man that took the part o' that. That's all he did was--he was at the places where they killed the cattle; and his job was to see that everything was--clean.

JH:And did he also slaughter them?

NK:Yeah, he did the slaughtering, too. And there were prayers said at the time--of the slaughtering. My Dad--when we first came here- my Dad took--let's see--see where this--. I'd say he went to school; they didn't have any school here. He took instructions from what's called a shohet--that's a man that looks after that; he took instructions from him--teachings--so that he could do that--see? And that was allowed religiously. If you took those instructions and passed, then you could do that yourself. I remember my Dad used to kill the chickens. He never--he'd take 'em and cut their throat. He never bothered about cows; 'cause he was in business--he didn't have the time to do that. But we used to order our meat from St. Louis or Kansas City.

JH:So would he just do that for the family?

NK:Oh, yeah, just for the family. Oh, if anybody--I wouldn't know if anybody solicited him there. They knew that my

Dad--that he took that training, see, for that purpose there. I don't know that they asked him; but if they did, why, he'd take care of 'em -without any charge. It was just for our family--mainly.

NK:No. I don't. He wasn't in this town. He was in St. Louis, I think.

JH:So there wasn't one who lived here?

NK:There was one later on--yeah. And, of course, my Dad used to keep up with the regulations, there, with this fellow. See? But my Dad didn't do any work for anybody; that was his job. Just for our own family.

JH:Now, you were about to say who some o' the other important--well, leaders--along with your father--would have been.

NK:Well, let's see. Well, they're long gone. I know there were--a number of people; he wasn't the only one that stood for organization and--as a leader. Oh--see, I can't think of the--can't think of the names. It's been a long time.

JH:Why did the Orthodox congregation wait till 1918 to incorporate?

NK:Well, after all, there was just a small amount of people here. We have a--at services, we have what's called a "minyan": you have to have a number of people to organize--or to perform a service--see? Well--if I recall there, there was very few people here. And, of course, the Reform people did not believe that was necessary- there. But the Orthodox did. In order to have services, they had to have a minyan. You couldn't--and that was ten people.

JH:Did it have to be men? Ten men?

NK:Yeah. Yeah. Women were not recognized for that purpose there.

JH:Did the men and women sit apart from each other?

NK:No. Oh--oh, yes! The Orthodox did, yeah. Uh huh.

JH:Did that change?

NK:Yeah. That changed there. There was very little of that done here. Because, naturally, they were women; they were mothers and wives: they were respected. And we didn't feel like they oughtta be separated; so eventually they all got together, and they admitted women there in the services--as well as men.

JH:Admitted them--I mean, they were always able to come to the services?

NK:Oh, they were able to come, but they had to--they couldn't sit together with the men. Had to be separate. [Unintelligible.] I remember that when I was in St. Louis: same thing there. I don't know how that went on; I was twelve years old at the time. But I know that they practiced that.

JH:Were there other things women couldn't do?

NK:Well, they couldn't perform as what I told you there--the shohet- lookin' after the animals and chickens--stuff like that; no. They could go ahead and--after it was all done-- they could go ahead and cook and--so on. But they had to keep--the Orthodox had to keep separate plates. Anybody ever tell you that?

JH:Dairy and meat?

NK:Meat and--yeah--from dairy, yeah. Kept separate dishes. And you couldn't mix 'em. Now, I know where our family kept that.

JH:Did you carry on doing that? Did you continue all that time?

NK:Oh, yes. Yeah. Even today. Even today, that was a reflection on me- to the point that I can't see dairy products mixed with meat. Can't do it.

JH:Do you remember any Hebrew school teachers here?

NK:No. I don't. But some of the members would perform. Yeah. On Saturday; not Sunday. Saturday was the main one.

JH:So there was always some kind of instruction, then--even when there wasn't a regular teacher?

NK:Oh, yeah. Yeah. They took the Hebrew bible and taught from that.

JH:Just boys, or did girls also attend?

NK:Oh, yeah: girls and boys. Yeah. Were students. I know, a couple o' years I even took part--when we didn't have any--. Well, it was up to the members, see. They wanted their children to learn about the Hebrew religion, see? And we had volunteers that would come in. Teach what we knew. Which wasn't much! [Laughs.]

JH:Well, this ["Fifty Years"] mentions Miss Hattie Cohn.

NK:Hattie Cohn?

JH:And Herman Rosenwasser.

NK:I don't remember any of 'em. Well, what about that?

JH:They were teachers, it said: "Temple Israel organized religious instruction." Oh, that must have earlier. That might have been the Reform group; I'm not sure.

NK:Yeah. Must've been, 'cause I don't remember any. When a rabbi came here, he became the teacher--see. That is, among the Orthodox. He used to teach.

JH:So--Richter and Jacob would--

NK:Yeah. Yeah, they all taught.

JH:How was Temple Israel--the synagogue--financed?

NK:Oh, well--we got together--I mean, the Orthodox and Reform--and charged membership--see. Just like they do today. We had expenses, there, of different kinds. When we employed a rabbi, why, he was paid--as a teacher--and a minister.

JH:How did you meet expenses before then? I mean, there must have been some expenses even before you had the synagogue? Like, to rent the hall.

NK:Well, before the synagogue, we used to meet up there in

the--on Walnut Street, there--the Masonic Building, I think they called it. Yeah. Well, we'd all pitch in out of our own pocket there. And pay the rent--which wasn't much. We used to meet there on Friday nights. See, that's four times a month. So.

NK:Well, once in a great while, if there was an important holiday, we would--again, [that] came on a Saturday--we would meet on Saturday, yeah. But everybody was busy, there, during the week otherwise, see. They were busy or working, and--we just couldn't get away. That was an exception there. But on Friday nights, we all got together. That is, the Reform--one separate, and the Reform separate.
JH:Isadore Lotven mentioned--in the '30s, I think, maybe--that there was an organization to help transients--people coming through who didn't have any money.

NK:Yeah.

JH:What was that? He said you were involved in that.

NK:Mm hmm. Yeah--I was--I was the leader of it there--that time was. Any of 'em that came through here, broke or hungry, why, they were instructed to call me. And I'd help 'em out with a meal--or even to the point--if it wasn't too much--fares--on buses, there--see. And -where did that money come from? We instructed the members of our organization there to--help out. Only time we asked 'em was when we needed money. It wasn't an organization that you had to contribute to every month or every year--once a year: huh uh--no. I handled it. Somebody came in here--claimed they was Jewish--I could tell from their name whether they were Jewish or not--and they were broke, comin' through here--hungry; I'd see that they had a meal--and I'd get 'em a ticket--we used to get a special discount here from bus companies. For a charitable case, you know. And when I spent some money, why, I'd appeal to the rest of 'em there--when we got together--and they'd kick in with--help. Wasn't any strict organization, where you paid so much every month or every week. It was just when we needed it, that's all. Just a transient organization--you know.

JH:How long did it last?

NK:Oh--[chuckles]--I guess that I must 'a handled it for--maybe eight or ten years--myself.

JH:Mainly during the Depression, then?

NK:Well, I don't recall that there was--. We've had depressions all along. But they were not publicized like they are today. Yeah. If business was bad, that was a depression. People were not buying- in the retail business, they were not buying there. They didn't call it a depression; it was--they used the word "dull": "business is dull."

JH:But when you had this organization, was that mainly in the '30s? Or what period?

NK:No, that was later than the '30s, there. It was started--prob'ly started in the '30s. O' course--we had very few people there that were considered transients, you know. It got to where--as the population grew, there 'as more

people--see? But I would say I handled it maybe for--ten or fifteen years. I didn't take any extra time, necessarily. If there was a case, I'd always ask 'em to make their way to my office there--ask somebody where Karchmer is. See, we were at our location now- for seventy years.

NK:No. Oh, well! I'll tell you, [the] Jewish people there mostly were in the--in that business: in the clothing business or--. And a transient, I would say, would find his way to--. He'd inquire, you know: who's--what's the name o' the fella in the clothing business? And when he got their name, he made his way to them; and he asked them, "Who can help me?" And they'd call me: "I got a man here that's a transient--needs some help. He's hungry. He needs a--oh, a ticket--to go to St. Louis or someplace, or to Kansas City." And, o' course, when that came up about the ticket, I had to go out and get it, because I got it at a discount, see--for 'em. But they made it- they found out who was--who would help 'em. There was no question about that.

Side Two
NK:I recall when one fella there was--on the square--was in the clothing business. Said, "There was a fella came into my store, said he needed some help. "Well," he said, "I can't afford to buy him a ticket." O' course, these guys would highjack their way on the--you know, they would--[mooch rides]--from people traveling, you know, and--flag 'em down. And if they were not able to be helped, see, when they got to Springfield, we got advertized among the--those people there--that needed help there: "Well, when you get to Springfield, you get ahold o' Mr. Karchmer"--see? So it automatically made an organization. We were not necessarily named an organization.

JH:What was the Jewish Community Fund?

NK:Oh. It's going on now--as a matter o' fact. I'm the chairman of it. We help out different organizations. Hospitals--that is, Jewish hospitals. Oh, and different organizations that were--. Learning--a learning organization, you know, where they need help; that's goin' on today. And we just ask people--I solicit these people there, through the mail, for this organization. And they help me out; they send me a check. And I have a bank account for it. Somebody comes through here and needs some help. And it's not only that; but we patronize national organizations--see--that help the poor; hospitalize; maybe -oh, these--let's see, how would they call it in English? Where they learn--a Jewish organization.

JH:Yeshivas?

NK:Well, the yeshiva is one of 'em, yeah. Who told you that?

JH:I've read about them.

NK:Yeah, yeshiva is a student organization, uh huh. And I automatically -I got a list of 'em--I send the money automatically.

JH:Is there a committee?

NK:No. Well, this committee there is Hyman Lotven and I. Yeah. He handles the bank account. And I'm the chairman; I get out letters. And he gets out a letter, too, when [we] need help. And it's not a membership organization. We just solicit our own people--the Jewish people.

JH:So do the two of you decide how much to send to what?

NK:No. Oh--oh, yeah; yeah. Yeah. O' course, in past years, originally, I don't know how it started. We gave 'em what we could. O' course, those people there that needed help, they would write back and say: we received your check for so and so; we would appreciate it if you can increase that, see. They were always asking for an increase- see? Needed to have more help. That's how that--that's where we got our ideas of givin' 'em a certain amount o' money. And, oh, I guess for the past ten years, it's prob'ly been the same thing.

JH:Well, it says it started with you and Louis Barth and Minnie Hirsch and Irving Schwab.

NK:That we started it?

JH:That's what it says here. I don't know.

NK:I don't recall that. I know all o' those people. We used to get together, I know. But there was no particular--meeting--[a run o' meetings there]--of different items there. We'd just talk about different organizations: what they need and what happened; and, o' course, year after year, we know what we gave 'em. There's a--for instance, there's a--Jewish people coming from Russia--from Germany-- that needed help--see? All right? There was organizations created for them: national organizations. And we'd contribute to that national organization--see. We don't have any- for a number of years, we don't have any local--people comin' in here that are--I call it "bumming their way"--whether they're bumming, or whether they're--actually were needed moving from one town to another, or to their family or--som'p'n. But we know from year to year who to give to.

JH:So the Fund covers national and local needs, then.

NK:Oh, yeah. Well, we have no local--really--no local needs.

JH:You mentioned hospitals, though.

NK:Yeah.

JH:Is that local hospitals?

NK:No; no, not from our Jewish organization. We, in particular, can give to local--see; but not as an organization--see--here. The other day, when this storm occurred down there in the south--where was that?

JH:Louisiana?

NK:Louisiana, yeah. All right? Naturally, you heard about it; I heard about it. I contributed--to the Red Cross here--I contributed a hundred dollars, personally. We have no organization here to give that; I gave it personally. And I told them I want that--them to help that group down there in the south--see. Whether they did or not, I don't know; but that was my instructions. I guess they did--'cause the Red Cross is everywhere.

JH:I want to ask you about a personal story. Isadore Lotven mentioned something about--I guess under F.D.R.--you know they were workin' on, I think, Fassnight Creek. W.P.A., maybe? And he said that your wife used to serve coffee to the workers? Do you remember that?

NK:Well, I wasn't familiar with it--with where she was contributing. My wife was very active in different organizations. See.

JH:Well, what Mr. Lotven was saying was she was doing this--it sounded like out of her kitchen--she was just giving coffee to workers who--.

NK:Out of the home, you mean?

JH:Yeah.

NK:I don't recall that. I know she used to go to different organizations and help 'em out with money--see, with donations, there--for food; and it would include coffee--see?

JH:When were you president of the congregation?

NK:When was I president? I don't remember the year. I can't give you the year.

JH:Do you know how long? One year, you say?

NK:One year. One year is all I can remember--yeah.

JH:Do you remember any contributions you made?

NK:My idea in belonging to an organization is not to take charge of it myself: let somebody else get in there, too--who could perform, see--there. So, from that I would say I wasn't in that over a year- yeah.
JH:Do you remember what you did during that time--as president?

NK:As president? Well, there was several things there. We didn't have a committee for each different thing--that had to be done there. In other words, there was--the main thing was the financial matter. Members don't always pay on time. You've gotta go after 'em, see- "We need the money." And--that was your job: come across. And, of course, if there was a rabbi or a teacher that was needed, that was part o' the job there: to communicate with the national organization--see. And, if there was anything needed for the organization, why--books--or maybe furniture or som'p'n like that. Yeah. I know one o' my main things was to--I didn't do this alone- was to look after our association of children--[and] learning. And, o' course, I--I spent a little time teaching myself. And, even after I was president, why, I continued that. 'Course I was educated both in the English part of it as well as the Hebrew part of it--see? See? We made it a point there to teach the kids to learn Hebrew--to read it. 'Cause the--in our synagogue, they--. O' course, later dates there, they started printing the English--. You ever see one of our prayer books? It's in Hebrew on one side and English on the other side. Oh, a number of things that came up there. Sometimes you needed--books--different supplies there. It was one o' the jobs that the president had--to look after that. If you found a family there that came here that was not sending their children to school--to Hebrew school--they were solicited: "Come on in." "We can't afford -." "It isn't necessary. Send 'em in; we'll take care o' that. When you're able, why, we want you to pay just like anybody else." And, of course, people, after a while, why, they would pay; they didn't want to feel that that was a charitable deal--see? They wanted to pay for their children's learning. Oh, there was a lot--being president, there--a lot came up, there. You naturally had to look after the Board o' Directors--call meetings--so on.

JH:Do you remember who was rabbi during your stint?

NK:I don't. We had a rabbi at the time, I know. But that wasn't the job of the president. That was the Board o' Directors, see.

JH:Oh, to choose them, you mean?

NK:Choose--oh, yeah! To get a rabbi, because--you had to pay him. And -it was up to the Board o' Directors to look after finances, too.

JH:You mentioned the idea of girls as well as boys going to Hebrew school. Do they do bat mitzvahs here?
NK:Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. They still do.

JH:When did that come in?

NK:Oh, I can't recall the year it started. But then, I think when our rabbi came here, that was--that's his job: to see that a--boy was bar mitzvah and a girl was bas mitzvah, see. And it continued that way. That's the rabbi's job--to look after that. And we practice it yet. Still practice that. As a matter of fact, last Saturday was a--that was a bas mitzvah. Mm hmm. Letters are sent out to the members, so--who's gonna have either a bar mitzvah or a bas mitzvah--one o' the two. Asking you to attend.

JH:Last time you talked about being active in service groups--like the muscular dystrophy and B'nai B'rith. Were there others that you were active in? Or social groups?

NK:Well, o' course, I was active in our own organization, you see--as president; and before I was president, and after I was president, I still remained active: there was always som'p'n to do--in an organization, see. Let's see, here? Besides the Masonic organization--and you mentioned the other one?

JH:You were in the B'nai B'rith and the muscular dystrophy.

NK:Muscular dystrophy, yeah. I oughtta remember that, because I was one of three that organized it--here. And, o' course, contributed money to 'em just the same. Even now. I haven't been to a meeting- oh, I guess, for--maybe a couple o' years. But I still--when there's a drive--a national drive--made, I still contribute--'cause I think it's needed. That's not a religious organization.

JH:No, but it's a service organization.

NK:Yeah. Or anything that comes up there. I'm besieged--as well as other businessmen are besieged--by different organizations that help. The other day I got a call from a fella--I don't remember his name. But--I've been helping out the ex-serviceman's organization- who are ill.

JH:The V.A.?

NK:Well, I don't remember the organization; but this fella said--called up and he says, "I represent so-and-so there." He says, "Every year I know you give us a donation. Can you help us out this year?" I said, "Certainly." So--there's different organizations that--I can't remember names. Salvation Army's another one. That local--what do you call it? It helps out.
JH:United Way?

NK:Yeah, United Way. Yeah. Oh, I have men and women call up--they solicit all businesses, you know--too; not only me. And--I don't call it help. These people are doing it--are helping. All they want is some money--that they have to spend. Well--ask me another question--that I don't know. [Laughs.]

JH:When you were elected, how did the election process go? Did they have a primary?

NK:What do you mean? In our church?

JH:No, when you were elected mayor.

NK:Oh, yeah. Yeah, had a primary. Yeah. Mm hmm. In other words, you gotta have--in order to find out who's running for that office--you gotta have a primary to get a list of people, see. And, of course, not here locally, but nationally, it's the Democratic and the Reform- Democratic and Republican. Yeah. No, we didn't have any--that time. There was no organization. I never had any organization. That was just my own idea there: that--I wondered, how would the voters feel towards me?

JH:I think you said there were eight running?

NK:Yeah, eight.

JH:And did they narrow that down to two? Or what?

NK:Yeah, they narrowed that down to--three, I think. Three or four. I'm tryin' to think when they--I was talkin' to a newspaper reporter, and he told me I came in first, and number two was so many votes. I had so many votes; number two, so many; and number three; and I think he mentioned four. The final election.

JH:One of 'em was the chief of police, wasn't he?

NK:Yeah.

JH:What was his name?

NK:[Chuckles.] I can't remember it. You know, I never mixed in politics. [Tape recorder off while Mr. Karchmer looks for newspaper article. Begins to talk about Lester E. Cox.] [He was in the] automobile supply business--before he--yeah. He got an idea of takin' over Burge. He said they needed help. So that's how Cox started, see. It started as Burge Hospital. I don't know what I did with that. I'll find it sometime. But--he came to me one day, and he said--he was gonna--he was interested in helping Burge Hospital; they needed help. And he says, "I'm figurin' on takin' it over." And he says, "I need help there--in the campaign to raise some money." He says, "I want you to help me." So I did. [Chuckles.] And--raised some money there to take over Burge Hospital. And--I never went any further than that. I was in business--I couldn't spare time to get away; but I did, to help him out. And--so, that's the connection I had with Cox Hospital. I felt like I helped them get started. Well, that all the questions you're gonna ask me that I don't know?

JH:Well, I've about run out of ideas for questions, but if anything else comes to mind--.

NK:Oh, I think you've got a lotta information on the Jewish organization--on the Jewish group that started here in Springfield. Yeah.

JH:Well, it's real interesting, because it must be so different from, like if you were living in New York in an area where there were loads of Jewish families around. And here everyone is spread apart; and it must be a very different kind of--

NK:Oh, yeah, yeah; they've got several million Jews there--I know. Seemed like everybody that came from the Old Country, landed in New York! [Laughs.] For some reason. Well, they had relatives there, or friends or somebody; so they landed there. But--well, of course, my Dad--he landed in St. Louis--when he came over from the Old Country.

JH:Was that because he wanted to join your brother?

NK:Oh, my Dad's brother?

JH:Yeah.

NK:No.

JH:No?

NK:No, he just went to visit him. I don't know if his brother was--I forget--

JH:Denver?

NK:Yeah. But, I mean, the business that he was in. I think he was in the furniture business. Yeah.

JH:He wanted to visit your brother first, though? Was that the idea?

NK:When he landed in this country, he knew his brother was here. Yeah, so, he went there that time. I look back there: at that time, we didn't have buses and planes and so on. In order to get to some distant city, I guess you had to go--you had to--bum your way through.

JH:Well, they had trains, didn't they?

NK:Oh, well--yeah, they had trains there, but I mean--. I call it bummin' your way through. It isn't like today. He had a hardship a gettin' to see his brother, I know. And he didn't have much money to spend, either. He just came over from the Old Country. I wonder how some of 'em got by. Came over here broke. O' course, we have several Jewish organizations that have helped Jews that came over here--to this country.

JH:Did he ever talk to you about how he got out to the midwest?

NK:About how? About him? Yeah. Yeah, he has told us [something] about that. But years ago, I guess I wasn't too much interested there--about that. Today I realize some o' the hardships there that they had--at the time. They didn't have any money--some of 'em. Problems of eating--you know. And people from the Old Country believe in kosher; you know what that is. And when they came to this country, it was, I guess, hard for 'em to--observe it. And, of course, I look back there: I was more interested in what my Dad did. He brought over three brothers from the Old Country--where they used to live, of course. And put 'em in business. And how he put 'em in business, I don't realize. He wasn't a wealthy man. I guess he told 'em, "Here you are: here's so money, and you get by, now--like I did."

JH:How many children did he have? Have many brothers and sisters did you have?

NK:Me? I? One brother and two--let's see--three sisters. There was five of us. I've got my--the oldest sister is the only one living now, besides me.

JH:How many children did you have? Or do you have?

NK:I?

JH:Yes.

NK:I had two. One living. I had a little boy who passed away about- last March. He was a lawyer--here. Billy--Billy, we called him. [Points to photograph on wall.] That's his picture. [I ask about other photos.] You know I was married twice. Betty was one of 'em.

JH:Your son who's living--

NK:My son?

JH:No, I don't have a son that's living. My son passed away. He was sixty-five years old; he passed away last March.

JH:So you have a daughter.

NK:Have a daughter that's living; yeah.

JH:Is she in town?

NK:No--oh, yeah! Her husband practically took over my business. I still go there, all right; but he practically runs it. They're away on a vacation in California now. They go away for three months every year. I come down and do what I can--help 'em. This fella was in the--he was a shoe salesman--her husband. They married, and he went overseas--in the army. And when he got back, why, he came to me, and I said, "Well, what are you gonna do? What kind o' work are you gonna do?" He said, "Well," he said, "I had colored troops--Negro troops." And he said, "My main man who was a sear--not a sergeant. Huh! What's the main man in the army?

JH:Second--

NK:Lieutenant! He was a lieutenant there. And he says, "He seemed to be a pretty smart fellow." Said, "We're figurin' on goin' in the--I was figurin' on goin' in--and opening up a magazine." I talked him out of it. Did I tell you this story? I said, "Look, you're gonna start a new magazine--that's not known. It's gonna take a long time for acceptance; and it might go and it might not. What do you know about magazines? You're not [experienced] in that." He was a shoe salesman when he went in the army. Oh, I said, "I'll tell you: I have a--. My brother was getting out of the service--my brother. And he indicated that he wanted to get into som'p'n else besides our business. That leaves me alone." Said, "I wouldn't want you to work for me. I'd want you as an interested person in the business, so you could use your mind just as well--and what little money I have." He said, "I don't need the money. Here's a financial statement. I'm fairly well fixed." "But," I said, "You got about twelve thousand dollars in your--." This boy didn't smoke; he didn't drink; he didn't gamble. When he got his military check, he used to send it to me; I put it in the bank for him. So, I said, "I know what you got. Take your money. I don't want anybody to work for

me--I wouldn't want you to work for me. You have an interest in the business. Take your money--not that I need it--but to show that you've got an interest in the business. And--put it in the bank, and I'll okay your signature, so that you can draw on the account; you may be called on as a member of the firm to write checks, pay bills." "And," I said, "You try--I--to ask you to try it. If you don't like it, you're not obligated to stay. Use your own judgement. If you don't like it, you can feel free to leave. And all you have to do, you don't have to come to me and ask me for your money: you got a right to sign checks--and draw out your money. You can do it. Just try it. If you don't like it, you can leave; you're not signing up anything." Well--he did. It's been thirty-six years, I think. When he got outta the service, he joined up with me, and he made some money. I think the man--of course, he made some other investments on his own- out of his twelve thousand dollars in thirty-six years. Think the man's a millionaire. I'm not; but he is! [Laughs.]

NK:No, he's from--a big city up in the east there. I forget.

JH:How did he meet your daughter?

NK:He went to school in Oklahoma City. And my daughter went to school in Oklahoma City. I sent my--I liked for my daughter to go down there, because I had a sister living in Oklahoma City. And she could -when she got outta school, she could go to see my sister--be with her relative. And he went to school there. So they met. And they decided to marry. And they did. And I know it's been some time, because I have a granddaughter that's their daughter--who lives in Canada. She calls me a couple o' times a week. And she's--I was surprised--forty-seven years old. They just celebrated--my daughter and my son-in-law just celebrated--Sunday--their fiftieth wedding anniversary. And she called me to tell me, "Did you know they're celebrating their--?" I said, "No, I didn't know that." They were in California. And they called me last night--to tell me about it. But--he's still in the business. As a matter o' fact, he practically runs the business--now. But I'm tryin' to think of the town he comes from. And he was a shoe salesman there. He didn't know anything about--my business. But he learned. [Let's] see. Can't think of the name. [He later recalls that it is Detroit.]

JH:Mr. Lotven said that the Jewish businessmen in Springfield had a very good reputation: a reputation for honesty. And that they were high standing in the--

NK:Oh, that's part of our religion. Sure. To respect people. And--no stealing! Honor--gotta honor people. It's easy--in our religion it's easy to obey the law. That's what our religion is: the Law. We don't say it's any better than any other religion. The Christian religion's all right, too--as long as people follow it. You want to ask me any more questions? [I turn off tape recorder until Mr. Karchmer mentions how he moved to present residence.] [After my wife died, I was] alone there--in a house. I got tired o' that, and my daughter says--she mentioned this place here [Creekside]. "There's a lotta people there to--you're not gonna be lonesome around there." So, two years ago, I decided to--stay here.

[Off tape Mr. Karchmer also comments that Rabbi Sherwin "knows her stuff."]