Tape I, Side 1
JH:Okay--just to avoid confusion--to my--

HL:Let him--

JH:--to my right--

IL:What's the question?

JH:--to my right is--? Your name--?

HL:Isadore.

IL:Isadore: I-s-a-d-o-r-e. Last name is Lotven: L-o-t-v-e-n.

JH:And you were born when?

IL:October the 30th, 19-0-8.

JH:And where?

IL:In Russia. A little town called Grosoff: G-r-o-s-o-f-f. It's right in Byelorussia--used to call [it] Byelorussia, but now they call [it] Byelorusse. The capital was Minsk--M-i-n-s-k--maybe you heard of that one. We lived approximately about forty miles--I would say- southeast of that town. It's a small town, with approximately a population--there must have been 'bout--I would say--about sixty or seventy Jewish families there. 'Cause we had one synagogue. And most of 'em were in--either in trade or--in business, you know: most sold food or--clothing, or things like that.

JH:What proportion of the village did that make up, then, in terms of the Jewish population?

IL:The Jewish population, like I said, there was approximately fifty or sixty families, in that average; but that's--

JH:And what was the total population about? In the village?

IL:From the whole town, you mean?

JH:Mm hmm.
IL:Oh, it must have been--oh, maybe five, six hundred. It was a really small village. It was mostly in a--agricultural section. You see those--there back in the ear--in mine--in Russia, where we were, the farms was not like here. The farms--there was--every--each- actually the homes were located in the one place. And next to 'em was the--was a stall for the cattle. But the farms--were way behind them. And you could go up maybe for--miles, there'd be nothing but--see different--products there. See, because--most of 'em was rye--wheat--barley--and potatoes: that was the four most important products that they raised over there--you see. And there, they used to--more like a corporation: they--people worked together on a farm as they went along--'cause those days there were no tractors, you know.

JH:And who would have owned the farm?

IL:Well, we--they used to go--we used to peddle to the farms, you know. You'd sell some of the goods, like--needles and thread, and stuff like that, you see. 'Cause they--once or twice a week, they used to come to town to bring in the products--to sell. And there they used to buy the groceries and whatever they needed. See. But it was just--it was, like I said, a very close community. They had a big church there. It was a--Russian--it wasn't Catholic, it was a--.

HL:Russian Orthodox.

IL:What do they call the Russian--the Russian--

HL:Orthodox.

JH:Eastern Orthodox, yeah.

IL:Orthodox--see. And all the people from our neighborhood used to come to the church. And that was right in the middle of the town. And they had a market around that once a week. We did all the business. Everything was well, until, you know, what happened back in 1914 when the war broke out. Then the trouble started. See. Now, that went on until--the first thing, the Germans came down there. Then the Germans left. Then the revolution came--1917- Revolution. That's when they really started a lotta the trouble, because we didn't know whether we were coming or going; because, see, we were located close the Polish border. See. And we never knew who 'as gonna be there. And the Revolution started, then Russia and Poland got into a fight--back in 1919. So we had--one day we had the Polish army, and the next day we had the Russian army--changing hands. And we were caught between.

JH:So they would be occupying--?

IL:Occupy--[the place]--we never knew who 'as gonna occupy us. And there was times when nobody was there. Now, of course, we--we finally got outta there. And if you wanta know how we got out, that's--that's another story.

JH:Well, let me just include you brother in this, too. What year were you born?

HL:1910.

JH:And your name is?

IL:You were born--

HL:'11--1911.

IL:You were born in 1912.

HL:No! Couldn't be in '12.

IL:December, 1911.

HL:'11.

JH:1911.

HL:1911.

JH:So you're younger.

HL:That's when I was born. And lived in the same place--that--he did- the same little town. See, my Dad--you see, what he didn't tell you -you see, my Dad--I was about a month old when my Dad left. You see.

IL:Well, my father left--he left 1912, my father did.

HL:By the--you see, I'd barely 'a been about a month or two old. What happened basically was--you gotta remember that--that he was in the Russian-Japanese War. And he came home--and he knew that he couldn't go back--to the service. 'Cause it was a bad situation.

JH:How long was he in the war?

IL:He was--

HL:About five years, wasn't it?

IL:He was five years in the Russian-Japan War.

HL:Yeah.

JH:Was everybody--were most of the men in the village called up for that?

HL:Oh, yes!

IL:Oh, yeah, sure.

HL:Yes.

IL:Well, here's what happened--if you want it at the beginning. My father and mother got married in 1900. Then the Russia--the Japan War broke out--so they were called in the army; he was to serve five years. When he came outta the army, he went back to the little town, you know--Grossof. And there, you had to be in a reserve until you were forty-five years old. So in April, nineteen hundred and twelve, they called my father for training, and he had to go back for trai--. He was gone for about a month. And when he came back, he told my mother--at that time Mother had six children--that there 'as gonna be another war and he's not gonna be in it. So he borrowed money--from my aunt--from Mother's sister--and got as far as Bremen, Germany. When he got to Bremen, Germany, he got a job on a freighter--comin' to the United States.

JH:What year is this?

IL:1912.

JH:1912.

IL:He landed in Galveston, Texas. Being on a freighter, they went to Boston, New York, Baltimore, New Orleans, and then Galveston. At that time, Galveston, Texas--every port had a Jewish--well- employment agency. And the one they--[telephone rings]--they called [tape recorder off].

IL:--Itzak Schieff: that's the fellow that was in charge, you know. And the reason was, they didn't wanta get all the Jewish people to congregate in one place: in the east, you know, in the big cities. So they 'ere tryin' to spread 'em out. So, when they ask him, what can he do, he says, "I'm a shoemaker." So they told him, "We got a job in Springfield, Missouri." Well, he didn't know what Springfield, Missouri, but as long as a job there, he took it. And that's when he came to here, in nineteen hundred and twelve?

JH:Was he a shoemaker?

IL:Oh, yes! Oh, yes. So he went to work for a man here in Springfield who had a store--on College Street--you know where College Street is. College and--west of Campbell. At that time, they used to have quite a business district at--downtown--see. He came to United States, it was in--May, nineteen hundred and twelve. That's when he got to this country. He worked for this gentleman, May, June, and July, and August: four months. He got acquainted with a very good fr--person here in town, who was in the--supplies for shoemakers- you know: leather supply. And with his help he went into business for himself. He rented a store on Boonville Street, and started a shoe repair shop and a shoe store. And that's how come--he was in Springfield. So--of course, when the war--the First World War- broke out, we didn't hear anything from him, because, after all, we couldn't get any mail or nothing. Consequently, in 1921--in February, 1921--we had a chance to get out of Russia. The chance that we had was because--one of the persons--[turn off tape recorder while Hyman finishes phone conversation].
JH:You were saying that the freighter would have to stop in New Yor- Boston and New York, Baltimore--

HL:Just like now!

IL:New Orleans, and then, Galveston.

HL:Galveston.

JH:Galveston. And then he was free to--

HL:Yeah!

IL:And they had--an agency--a placement agency--where they

put--where they had 'em--a job; and that's how come he came to Springfield.

IL:Because he didn't know Springfield from anything; but that--they didn't wanta let him in New York. They want--like I say, that's true: they didn't want to congregate in New York all the time, so they spread 'em all over. And when he came here, there must have been a population of Springfield at that time was about 30,000--maybe- 25--30,000. But those days, the railroad, you know, was big. Frisco Railroad was big--here in Springfield. At one time practically half of the population worked at Frisco--for the Frisco Railroads. Even when I came here, there was about 15 or 16,000 people working for the railroads. But now it's a different story. Now, that's how come he came to Springfield. He liked it so well, he stayed here.

JH:So, it was a--it was center of trade at that point.

IL:Huh?

JH:It was more of a center of trade.

IL:Settled. That's what it was; they settled in here in town. And then, of course, after that, other Jewish people came from other places.

[Hyman shows me newsletter from Jewish immigration aid society- HIAS.]

HL:Cut that thing off--cut that thing off. [Tape recorder off while Hyman talks about HIAS.] Now, I'm gonna have to leave at quarter to two. But whatever--he knows it as well as I do. I just got a phone call. [Conversation about phone call--tape recorder off.]

JH:You had some more on--.

HL:Go ahead--go ahead.

JH:So did--? You stayed behind--you--well, all of you stayed behind--

HL:Four boys and one daughter--and one sister. [IL: When my father left.] And Mother.

JH:And how long was he gone before you were able to join him?

IL:Well, he left 1912, and we joined him here in 1921.

JH:1921.

IL:Nine years.

JH:And you were explaining how you were able to go over.

IL:Well, here's the situation. What happened is this: we had a fri- fella there--a very good friend of ours--who had a neighbor whose son deserted the Russian army. And he wanted to get over to Poland -because at that time if you could get over to Poland, you were all right. It was [about] nineteen hundred and--it was in February, 1921.

HL:They had an embassy there.

IL:See. 1921. So, what he did--he had a sled--and he made a false bottom on the sled. That's where his son was. Then on top of that was my older--my--brothers--my sister and he and my other brother; and my oldest brother and myself and my mother held onto the sled, and we walked all night long to cross the border--from Russia into Poland. 'Cause we were right close to the border; but we had to do it at night.

JH:Were you sneaking over so you wouldn't--

HL:Well, they wouldn't let you--

JH:--have to go through the official channels?

HL:Well, you couldn't go through the official channels.

IL:Because you couldn't--they wouldn't let you get out, see.

HL:They wouldn't let you out! [Laughs.]

IL:Russia wouldn't let you get out. But once we got into Poland, it was a different story then--see. See, when got into Poland, there was- my aunt--when she was in--. She left before we did--and she was in Warsaw; and she got a friend o' hers--told her that we were supposed to be over sometimes, and she gave 'em the place where we'll go. She knew where we were gonna be. So when we got there, we wrote to the party, and she came and picked us up in that [unintelligible].

HL:And my aunt paid for it.

IL:And she paid for it.

JH:How did you know where to go?

HL:Well, you had smuggling--

IL:We didn't.

HL:--organizations.

IL:But--all running across the border to--just that town which was closest to Russia.

HL:See, but you had professional smugglers.

IL:Poland is here [indicating with hands] and Russia is here.

JH:Did you have to pay?

HL:Oh, definitely!

IL:Oh, yes! You had to pay.

HL:My aunt paid.

IL:My aunt paid aheada time.

HL:Oh, sure, they didn't do it for free.

IL:So then they--that's how they picked us up, and got a--we got the train, and we went from the train--see, we didn't have no railroads in our town.

HL:And we didn't have any money.

IL:So when we got on a train--in fact, it was a freighter--and went to Warsaw. Once we got to Warsaw, we went to--over to that agency; and we told 'em who we were, and told 'em where my father was. 'Cause we hadn't heard from him since 1914, you know: that's a--

HL:He couldn't find us.

IL:That's about eight years, nine years, you see; we didn't know where he was. Well, when they got the name, they wrote here to Springfield to find out whether Dad is still here; and sure enough, he was still here. So right away he sent money to them.

JH:So they knew in Warsaw that he'd been--sent on to Springfield.

IL:We went to Warsaw in Poland.

HL:Well, this agency traced him.

IL:So we went to this agency, and they were the ones that found out where--Dad was here, and, of course, he sent money to them--and- [our] passage, you know. But we had to wait for our turn to come- you see. But we had a break. We stayed there--we got to Warsaw in March--April--right before--by Passover--April; and we were supposed to stay there until the following April in 1922 before we can go. In the meantime, they changed the rule whereby- immigrants coming to parents, like my father--they had priority. So we got on that trai--we got here, into Springfield, in--September the 13th, 1921.

JH:So you had to go that route?

IL:Well, we had to go from Warsaw--we went to Antwerp, Belgium.

JH:By train?

IL:And after we got in Antwerp, Belgium, then we got a boat in Antwerp.

JH:Did you go to Antwerp by train?

IL:No--by train, to Antwerp; yeah, from Warsaw to Antwerp by train. And we got a boat in Antwerp and came to Ellis Island--in New York -at that time--in 1921--September, 1921. And there, they put us on the train, and we came direct to Springfield. So we got here September the 13th, 1921. And we've been here ever since. So we came over with--four boys and my sister--was five--and my mother: six of us. But, of course, after we got here, we went to school, and--we stayed here.

JH:Were there other--at the same time that your father

arrived--were there other Eastern European families arriving, too?

JH:Yes.

IL:Yes! You see, the Arbeitmans came here, the Salzmans came here--

RL:Did you--did you tell that Fannie was here? Came in 1913?

IL:Who?

RL:Fannie.

IL:Oh, yeah--well, my sister--my sister came ear--

RL:Oldest sister.

IL:See, my oldest sister came earlier, before we did. She--

RL:1913.

IL:1914.

RL:'14? Just before the war.

IL:Just before the war started. And my oldest sister came before the war started. She left--our Dad brought her over here before the war started. She came in 1914. See. Now, he figured--

JH:So--that was when you were still able to be in contact at that point?

IL:Up to the First World War, we were in contact all the time, because, see, Dad sent us money, you know, from here--from there--before the war started. And that's my oldest

sister--he wanted to get her outta there. She was--that time--let's see, she was born in 19-0-2; she was twelve years old. So he figured he would bring her over, then would bring us over, see. But the war started--the First World War--and he couldn't do it. That's why he had to wait.

IL:We couldn't get out.

JH:Right, but couldn't a letter reach you?

IL:Well, he couldn't afford to bring our family at one time--see.

HL:He didn't have any money then.

IL:He'd just been himself--

HL:See--after World War I broke out, and he lost us altogether. See, there was no relationship between Russia and United States during World War I.

JH:What about after the war, though? Were you able to correspond again?

IL:They wouldn't you let you out.

JH:Yes, but were you able to able to at least write to each other? Your father and--?

HL:Yeah, but don't forget [unintelligible].

IL:No, there wasn't--there was no mail whatsoever.

HL:No. No mail or anything; Lord, no.

JH:No mail.

IL:No, there was no mail to get whatsoever, you see. You couldn't get anything--after the--. Especially when the revolution started, it was forget it: you couldn't get nothing. See. That's when the Bolsheviks were there, and [us] was there: you know how that was. And especially--oh, and young boys, they wouldn't let out at all. Going out of Russia; because they want to keep them there for the- for the army. We couldn't get out; see, they wouldn't let you out. But that's why we had to get our way at night--and cross the border; otherwise you couldn't do it.

JH:And had your aunt sent the money? Or she had already paid the--?

IL:She went before we did; and when she came to Warsaw, her husband sent her money. And she knew that we were gonna get out sometimes; so she made arrangements with the people in Warsaw- when they hear from us to go and pick us up at another town--in Neshviza, which was on the Polish border. See. It was--that was quite a mixup, you know, those days. Lord! It's almost impossible to believe it. See. But once we got to Warsaw, you know, it wasn't [unintelligible]--we had a--[laughs]--we had a place to stay--if you wanta call it a place. There was about eighteen people there in a three-room apartment!

JH:Was that your aunt's apartment?

IL:Huh?

JH:Your aunt's apartment or--?

IL:No, no, no, no! No, just a fellow that owned an apartment there--was a fellow who--rented apartment. See, there was--three rooms in there, and there was eighteen of us in there.

JH:Eighteen!

IL:Eighteen people lived in that apartment. It was crowded--sure, it was crowded! [JH: Several families--] It was all immigrant- immigrants coming from everywhere. Getting out, as much as they can. It isn't--. It's differently nowadays, of course: they--you fly; but those days you couldn't fly, you know.

JH:Well, I read that some of the emigrant trains to the ports where actually freight cars that people would be put into. But how did- what kind of journey did you--?

IL:On the boat?

JH:No, on the train.

IL:On the train? Third class.

JH:Third--oh, okay.

IL:In fact, we went from the town--Neschviza--to Warsaw--we went in a freight car. The freight car was packed; you couldn't even stand up! But then from Warsaw to--Antwerp--

JH:Antwerp?

IL:--Antwerp, we had a regular train--see. It was different then, you see. Now on the boat we were on third class.

JH:What did that mean?

IL:It means we were on the bottom. On the bottom of the boat.

JH:Is that what they used to call "steerage"?

IL:They used to call [it] third class: steerage, you know. And it took us fourteen days to cross over from Antwerp to Ellis Island. Then, when we came to Springfield, it was a different story, of course. We--Father bought a big house on State Street, and--we went to school and--just worked ourselves up. Those days you worked. People complaining nowadays. They don't know what work means!

JH:So when you--when your father arrived--then there were a number of other Jewish immigrants coming in around the same time?

IL:Oh, yes!

JH:And all trying to establish themselves in business--mainly? Or what?

IL:Oh, I don't where they went to, but there were a lotta immigrants on that boat, but--

JH:No, I mean into Springfield.

IL:Oh, no, no; we were the only ones that came at that time. Because, now, other families came here before we did. Arbeitmans came in about a year before we did, because

they--they came from Poland. See, it was easier to get out from Poland than it was from Russia; that's the difference in it. I think the Arbeitmans came here in 1920. Just about a year before we did. Then after that the Salzmans came; he was a relation to the Arbeitmans. And not too many immigrants came after we did. As far as immigrants is concerned. But, of course, other people came here that were Jewish people that moved to Springfield from other cities.

IL:See. At one time here, in Springfield itself, a lot of your business people was actually Jewish people who were in business here. You don't see very many now, but those

days--

IL:Oh, yes, merchants, sure; that's what most of 'em were. Now, there were not--there was only one person I knew of--a fellow who worked for the Frisco--a Jewish feller. The rest of 'em were in business--all kind of business: clothing business, shoe business- tailoring--cleaning and pressing. But that's what they were: they were just--came down to a small town and got into a small business. But now--of course, for that time, you know, there was about thirty families--thirty or thirty-one families--and--on the Orthodox side. And there were about--altogether, there must have been about fifty or sixty families here at that time--combined.

JH:Around, what, the early '20s?

IL:In Springfield.

JH:Right. In the early '20s are you--talking about?

IL:That's in the early '20s--1921. But after--as time went on, you know, other people moved in here. Of course, the only old-timers left right now, really from far back, is Mr. Karchmer and--and--us. The rest o' them are--are gone already. How long you been in Springfield? [I turn off tape recorder to answer question. He begins to discuss SMSU.] SMS--they called it "State Teacher's College." They only had, maybe--I don't know how many; it was very small. But they kept growing and growing and growing, and they got to a pretty good size.

JH:Well, you spoke about other families coming in from other parts of the United States--Jewish families. Was there any particular drawing point that Springfield had--or how did people end up here?

IL:Well, it's--it's difficult to explain why. But some peo--[in] some cases they had some relatives here, and they came down. In other places, they just want to get away from the big cities. And they came to Springfield. And this was--always has been a very nice town. I mean, we liked it very much; there was very little trouble- here. Had plenty room; living expense was lower. And that's the way some of the Jewish people came here. And now, of course--the difference now--a lotta these--a lot of--see, at that time, when we came, there were no Jewish professors. We didn't have no Jewish doctors. There was not a Jewish doctor in the whole town in those days. And we had one attorney: Irving Schwab. That's the only attorney we had in the whole town. 'Cause most of 'em were just- were all merchants--see. But now, of course--nowadays it's different. You take most o' the Jewish people here, are either- professionals. Rather than business.

JH:When did that start to happen?

IL:After the war.

JH:The Second World War?

IL:[Nods.] See, what happened also, in many cases--
]
RL:Now, you know when it started--to happen? Right after the war. [IL: That's what I said.] After President Ellis--out of SMS--resigned; I mean when that was changed. President--when President Ellis was head--president of SMS--there was no Jewish professors. [IL: That's what I said; that's what I told her.] At all. [IL: When Ellis left, there was--] And there--there was a few--one or two doctors, I mean. But after Ellis--left, that's when we started having Jewish professors.

JH:When did he leave?

RL:It must be in the '50s--or early '60--oh, early '60s.

IL:When did you go there? Was in the '50s, wasn't it?

RL:I went there in the '50s, but he was still there.

JH:So you attribute it to his policy?

RL:That's right. It is. There was no black and no--no Jews.

Definitely.

RL:Yes.

JH:Was there a reason for that?

IL:Well, they just--what's happened is--I mean, at the time, the college professors came from the east. And a good professor just found an opening here--they just came down here, and little by little, and--after they came, they liked it, and they stayed.

JH:What about the G.I. Bill? Did that have an effect on people's getting more of an education?

IL:That would--that's when more--some Jewish people began to go to SMS--under the G.I. Bill. You see. But a lot of 'em--I don't know how--I don't know of anybody that stayed here afterwards. [They went to] different places to teach, you know. But those that we have--those professors there now--they came in from outside--I mean, little by little. And the same thing with the doctors. We had -the only doctor that I know is a Springfield doctor--person--who was born and raised here--was Dr. Lurie. Harold Lurie. He's the only doctor I know of that's born and raised in Springfield.

JH:Were there other people who became doctors who moved to other places from here?

IL:Not that I could recollect at all--people who were born in Springfield--Jewish people who were born in Springfield--and went other places and became doctors--I really don't know--couldn't tell you--. Now, see, when they had the O'Reilly Hospital here--during the war--they had some o' the doctors here who stayed afterwards- when they closed up. See, they stayed here--[unintelligible]--not any left here anymore because--. There--we still got one or two still here who were at the hospital--because they're retired. But everybody could have--some--during the war, there were--some o' the people came down here. And also, that time, when they had Fort Wood--and that Camp at Neosho, Missouri--that was another camp there, I forgot the name of it. There was a small camp there. And that time, those G.I.s used to come down to Springfield, you know. And a lot of 'em, after they got outta the army, decided to come to the middle west. 'Cause it was getting crowded in the east, they didn't like it; so they came midwest, and were moving away from there.

JH:So you would say that most of the professionals--the younger Jewish professionals--would have been from--have come from other places--

IL:Other places. That's right.

JH:--rather than being sons of people who had born--

IL:That is correct.

JH:--raised their kids here.

IL:That's right.

JH:So, did people who grew up here--like the sons and daughters of emigrants who came over in the early part of the

century--did they tend to go into business, as well?

JH:What is it called?

IL:Called FIMCO: Federow Iron and Metal Company.

JH:Oh! The Federows, yes.

IL:Federows. Mr. Federow came to Springfield in 193--6, I think it was--from St. Louis. You see, during the Depression--a lotta people during the Depression moved outta the cities and came down here. Because it was easier to make a living here than it was over there in the big city.

JH:So where did they come from?

IL:And other people came here--. We had a factory here: Oberman Manufacturing Company; it was a pants factory. And Mr. Oberman, when he opened up--now, this was back in the--early '20s, or before then even--1919--right after the war. And they had a pants factory, and they had a lotta Jewish people came to the factory there that was--cutters, you know--designers--managers. And they had at least--I would say--about ten or twelve Jewish people working there in that factory.

JH:Now, I've gotten the impression that the German Jewish immigrants had come here earlier.

IL:Well, they came--they came earlier, yes. [Unintelligble.]

JH:Had they established themselves in business?

IL:Business. Practically all of 'em were in business--as far as the Germans--Jews were concerned: Levy-Wolf, Netter's-- Barth's. Now, the Barth's originally was Nathan--Nathan Clothing Company- was at--was the brother-in-law. And then, there's--what's his name--Herman; had Herman--Freeman's. They were [all]--all German. Came in--they came much earlier, because our temple was -actually the temple

itself--was established in--1893. And Rubenstein's--that was another family that came here before--way before then--see. That's all the German Jews came out here--and settled here. A lot of 'em came--a lot of the Jewish people-- especially one o' the German Jews--came to Springfield from Arkansas. Because when the railroad was goin' through Arkansas--Pine Bluff, especially--you know, a lotta the Jewish people followed with the railroads, because peddling, you know: selling merchandise. And when the railroads moved away, you know, of course--from Arkansas--they found out that Springfield had a rail--Frisco--that's what brought 'em in here -[for] business.

IL:Oh, yes. That's--a lot of 'em came from Arkansas.

JH:Now, the eastern European Jews would have been Orthodox-right?

IL:Ah--yes.

JH:So, how--the Reform Congregation had already been established by then, right? And that was mainly the German settlers?

IL:Most of the original Reform organization was organized in 1893 by the German Jews. Then--when the European Jews started coming here--for example, back--then in 1912, they organized--but they didn't get a charter yet. See, they started at Karchmers, you know, my Dad, and Arbeitmans,

and--we--in fact, we got a charter, there's about thirty-five of 'em there; they didn't get that charter till 1918. Then we had two congregations. We had the United Hebrew Congregation--we didn't have United Hebrew. One was called Temple Israel; and the other one was called Shaare Zedick. See. And that went on until 1947 or '48. At 19--that

time--after the war--it was the second war--see--and the population was getting--growing in Springfield--there was a difficult situation. Orthodox--the older ones were kind of disappearing, and the younger ones didn't care for--you know, [we] were just too--too--what I would say fanatic--for them. The same thing with the Reform. A lot of 'em over there, they found out they were too Reform: [they just got]--entirely away from it. So in order not to--in order to exist, they tried to consolidate. And--really more like a Conservative; and neither too strong one side or the other side. [I put my hands together.] That's right.

IL:Met right in the middle. This was back in nineteen hundred and forty-eight, I think it was: forty-seven or forty-eight, I'm not sure. At that time they had a Rabbi Jacob here. And he was--came from Germany; but he was more Orthodox rather than Reform. And he got us together, and that's when we really got organized as the United Hebrew Congregation. So, we didn't have a synagogue. We used to have a room in the old Masonic Temple. I'll tell you where that is. You know where the Landers Theater is? Next

door--on the west end? That's the old--called the Masonic Temple. On the second floor, we had a room there--started from 1912, until 1948, I think it was.

IL:We didn't have a rabbi. At one time we had a rabbi called--he wasn't a rabbi; he more of a--oh, how would you--a person who does the slaughtering of cattle? A [rabbiner]--we call ['em rabbiner]--you know. The name was Littmann. See. He came here in nineteen twenty--four, I think it was; and he died here in Springfield 1933. And his--they had a grocery store here. And his son stayed until he died in 1954. And none of the Littmanns left here now. His son--his grand-son--David Littmann--is now the head of the St. Louis Post Dispatch. He was born and raised here in Springfield, went to Springfield Schools, and he went to Missouri University--in journalism. When he got out, he worked here for the newspaper- David. Then he got a job at the Post-Dispatch, and worked himself up as a journalist--the head bigshot of the Post-Dispatch; he's still there.

JH:How did the congregation organize? I mean, when you first got here and there wasn't an official charter, did the families in the Orthodox community still get together at--you were saying, the Masonic Temple? Did they do that before they had the charter?

IL:Oh, no, they got a charter in 1918.

JH:But before that?

IL:They didn't have a charter, but they had a service.

JH:They did have a service?

IL:Oh, yes! Yes. Until they got the charter, which was 1918. But they had a service--actually, it started in 1912. That's when they got together for the first Orthodox service. Because they found out there was quite a few Jews here, and they didn't go here and they didn't go there, until then we got there, till we--they got together, you see.

JH:Well--before the United Hebrew Congregation was formed--what was the relationship like between the Reform and the Orthodox?

IL:As far as the social--is concerned--of course, they never had any problems, as far as that's concerned. In fact, some of the members belonged to both organizations. But they really did not have anything in common, what I would say. For outside o' the congregations, it was a different story. But as far as the religious is concerned--they had theirs and we had ours. Now, the reason that some of 'em belonged to both of 'em, because they just--to support them- financially. But actually, as far as service is concerned, they still came to us in the Orthodox group. See.

JH:But besides the doctrinal differences were there differences between--?

IL:No.

JH:Not really?

IL:Outside, those two, they never had any problem, as far as their social life was concerned. They--we stayed in our place--. A lot of--if they had some affair and they want to invite some o' the others, it was perfectly all right. If they didn't, they didn't.

JH:What about things that are sort of both religious and social occasions, like weddings? Were they performed differently?

IL:Is what--?

JH:Like weddings. Were they--?

IL:Weddings?

JH:Yeah.

IL:It was up to the individual. If they had a wedding there, and it was performed by the rabbi, if they want to invite some o' the other people, it was up to them. It had nothing to do with the congregations. Social life. I'm talkin' about social life.

JH:So the weddings would fall more under--?

IL:No problem. And were no problem to--each one, they had just kinda their own business. Like I said, if someone in the Orthodox want to invite the Reform for a social life--like a wedding or something like that--they had that privilege. They want to attend it, fine; if they don't--they didn't.

JH:Well, when the two decided to unite, how did that decision come about?

IL:Well, it was up to both sides to decide what they want to do. So what happened is: we had meetings and talked it over. And we decided--it was nineteen hundred and fifty--well, we--we kept on discussing it since 1948. Then finally, we decided one thing. You know where the temple is. You know, we had all that empty ground behind it where they got that community center now. That wasn't there at that time; all we had was just a temple. So we decided one thing: let's do this. I was--happened to be on the committee there- we got together at Mr. Sass's house--[tape recorder off while R. Lotven offers me something to drink]. Okay, so we had meetings- and finally we decided one thing. This--had a meeting at Mr. Sass's house. I said, "Look: let's not worry about service. Let's build a community center--for everybody--every Jewish person: it's a community center--for weddings, for functions--for [things] like that. As far as the service is concerned, we'll have one room built in the community center for the Orthodox group"--which was getting smaller and smaller. "And the Friday nights, you have your service in your place and we'll have service in our place. Now, what we did- our service don't last very long, because we don't have no--on Friday night, especially--because we usually don't have any--what do I call--sermons--on Friday night. 'Cause Friday night's for the early service and we go home. Therefore, we had our service at 7:30, which would last about thirty minutes. They had theirs at eight o'clock. Now, if anybody from our service, [after it] get through, that wants to go there, that's their privilege! See.

JH:But was it--it was physically in a different part of the building, then?

IL:It was next to it.

JH:Next to it.

IL:You know--you know, it's all one big building, we built attached to the temple. So you can go from one place to the other. But within in the building, we two separate rooms: one where the rabbi's office is now, and then we got another one on the other side, which we used to have our services in. It's a small room? Were you ever in that?

JH:When I was thirteen.

IL:You were there one time in that social hall? Not the temple, but I'm talkin' the social hall.

JH:Oh, well, I was in the social hall a couple of weeks ago.

IL:You were? Okay. Now, you know where you go in, you see one room on the west side and one on the east side. If you notice there's doors, going in there. There's a room built on the east side with a door coming into the center. There's another room on the west side which is used for the rabbi's office. And the one on the east side is the one we had our services. 'Cause we had a small amount. Now- when it came to the high holy days--which we had more atten dance--we moved into the hall--into the big hall. Which we are doing nowadays, too, because kinda--because on attendance.

JH:Well, you say the Orthodox congregation was shrinking. Had it been about equal to begin with? In the earlier part of the century--equal numbers of people?

IL:Well, in the earlier part of the century--I don't know why they couldn't get together--because they were so far apart--religiously -that people from Eastern Europe wouldn't even think about going to the Reform temple. The [sermons] was very, very far apart, and they couldn't even get close together. But now, since it came out more with Conservative type, then both sides give--in order to keep it as a Jewish congregation. The old-timers, who were so much against it, are not here anymore--and the younger generation are not quite as religious as they were in Eastern Europe, and also at the same time, more religious than the Germans were. It's not only happening here; it's happening all over--. You see, my son-in-law is a rabbi. Supposed to be a Reform rabbi. But he's not, actually. When he got- he lives in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. When he came to Lancaster, Pennsylvania, twelve years ago--with my daughter--they

were--the congregation there was strictly German, because it was built back in 1847--by the German Jews.

IL:See. But it's all--so changed so much nowadays that you wouldn't believe it. They blend--more of a mix--in between: you're not strict Orthodox or strict Reform. And that's what we're having here. See. Because you can't go one way or the other in this--it doesn't work that way. If you got a big city like New York--it's a different story. But the small towns--everywhere you go, it's practically the same thing now: they're all consolidated.

JH:Well, now both congregations have the same service, don't they?

IL:Now we have the same service, yes. Oh, yes.

JH:When did that happen?

IL:That happened in--finally happened, 19--1950--in the '50s--or the early--about 1960, I think it was--when we got the one service; because they had new books came out--new prayer books. The new prayer books is so different than old ones--the Reform I'm talkin' about--see. And we had a rabbi

here--that came--and he is the one--that got us to get together on the one service. Which we did. For example, in Orthodox synagogues--[cut off].

JH:Well, was it difficult for the--? You said there was a gradual shift on both sides. But was it still difficult for some members of the Orthodox congregation to accept some of the changes?

IL:Well, the ones--the ones that woulda been really strong against it weren't here anymore; they died, see. Most of 'em. It's the same thing on their side. Most of those strictly Reform, they died--old timers. Actually from the old-timers left here in Springfield today -there're just three of us--four of us. My brother Hymie, myself, and my other brother--I got another brother here--he lives in an apartment--and Nathan Karchmer. That's all we got. From the Reform side, there's nobody left. From the old-timers.
JH:Because they were here before--

IL:They always--they either passed away or--. But don't forget, that's been quite a while ago. That's what I tell those people now: we are the old-timers now. See.

JH:When did the changes in observance become obvious?

IL:You mean the--why did we change all to one service?

JH:Or even smaller things. You said you would notice the Reform members becoming a little more traditional and the Orthodox a little less.

IL:This--it started--it hasn't been too long. It started, I'd say, when we got the first young rabbi. See--Rabbi Jacob retired--I think it was 1960.

JH:That was the first rabbi?

IL:It was 1960. Then we got Rabbi Wucher came here--as a student rabbi. See. He came as a student rabbi. And that's when we were start--beginning to get--away from that. And then when Rabbi Jacob left Springfield--now, he died--he went--see, he's got a rab- son that's a rabbi in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. So when he retired- after he retired for a while--he left Springfield and went to Pittsburgh. See. And now, the rest of us [went]--so, we decided right there on the spot--because there was nobody left in the Reform group--circle--interested enough to keep it going. Actually.

JH:Marc had a question connected with changes in observance: When did Orthodox members begin driving to synagogue?

IL:When? When they couldn't--it was too far to walk.

RL:No, no, no. When was--the Reform had a--the small synagogue, and the large--you know. After the--. When did we have one service: this is what you're asking?

JH:No, Marc's question--he said that it wouldn't have been accepted to -that you had to walk before. Because it was doing work.

IL:Well, I know [of the eastern]--most of 'em--most of 'em didn't walk.

RL:Yeah.

IL:That was way back.

RL:There was--they consolidated financially only. And--but they had two distinct services: one in the main sanctuary, then there was another one, a small one. Yes?

IL:That's right.

RL:Okay.

JH:His question was more to do with--he was saying that it was considered work to drive, because of the internal combustion engine.

IL:Yeah, I know what you're talkin' about. Now, they never actually did observe it here. Actually. The only time they observe it is--I did when I--I used to walk from here to the temple. Of course, when we had it downtown, we had several people--my Dad and mother used to walk, Karchmer used to walk--'cause it wasn't very far. We lived on State Street; that's on Walnut Street. But when we moved in here- you see--

JH:It wasn't practical.

IL:It just wasn't practical walking. And so that's why we started- rode. But on the high holy days I used to walk; but now--I get--start getting older, I'm afraid to walk at night! Used to be a time when I was here--back in the

'30s--I used to be in the bowling alley until two o'clock in the morning and walk home on State Street and I wasn't afraid! Now I wouldn't walk. That's the difference in it.

IL:Well, as far as their faith is concerned, it's up to individuals; because if you're talkin' about--you know--the service is to satisfy everybody. But now, I mean, there [unintelligible] with the new books, you know--which is more Conservative rather than actually Reform. And they have

in--the book itself there are several different services, and you can give whichever you want. And traditionally--they have more tradition in the temple now than they ever had before. The observance--for example--the observance of Chanukkah: Reform hardly ever observed that. They were different. And the same thing with the other holidays. So.

IL:Oh, no, no, no, no. That was different. Russia was very--well, it was strictly Orthodox. I observed holidays there, and we used to go to synagogue every day--three times a day, in fact.

JH:Three times a day.

IL:That's right: morning, noon, and night. They had service in the morning--and in the eve--[they had it] in the afternoon, and evening. In other words, we used to have a service before sunset and one after sunset. Oh, it was--that was [an] entirely different life there. You can't compare it whatsoever.

JH:Well, I had read that Chanukkah was not considered as high a holiday as--

IL:It's not a holiday--it's not. It isn't. It's a--it's a celebration. You see, that's the difference; people don't realize it. We actually have -two holidays in the year: that's New Year's, which is Rosh Hashanah--two days--and Yom Kippur. All the rest of 'em are festivals--celebrations for reasons. There's always a reason for it. Why do we celebrate Passover? Deliverance from Egypt. Why do we [practice the]--have the Shavuot--which is--seven--because that's the time of the harvest--of planting, you know. That's two days we have. Then we have the fall festival, which is harvest festival: Sukkot. See. Then we have Purim, which is the story of Esther. Now, Chanukkah is the story of the--of the--

JH:Maccabees.

IL:Maccabee--the Maccabees. But those are--those are festivals; those are not holidays--you see. We don't--it's more of a--for the twelve months of the year--you observe it, of course. Like Fourth of July- Decoration Day. But those like that, you know, just--Decoration is not a holiday. Even Thanksgiving is not a holiday. Actually, you got the holidays--the only holidays you have is Christmas--and Easter. That's when you go to church; you are supposed to go to church on holidays. The rest o' your time, of course you can have church services--nothin' to it--but it's not--it is not considered--to me, as far as I can see, it's not holidays: there's nothin' holy about it. It's a celebration. There's a reason for it. Why do you celebrate Thanksgiving? Because you finish up the harvest. Harvest festival. See. Why do you [have a] Decoration Day? Because of the Declaration of Independence. The same with Labor Day, and the same thing with the other days.

Because--we don't keep--. For example, a holiday, you don't change the time. You do it actually when it's according to the Jewish calendar. And even our celebrations, the same way; we never changed it. Well, because--you came--the English--America--here in the United States changing--they decided they gonna change everything from Monday. Why? To get a three-day holiday. Lincoln's birthday's on Monday; Washington's birthday's on Monday; Decoration Day's on Monday: everything is on Monday. Why? Because they want a three-day holiday--to get--for--to go fishing. See. Reminds me of a story, you know--talkin' about goin' fishin'--and holidays. A fellow and his wife used to be very, very--serious about their church every Fri--every Sunday. They ne--ver failed to go in church on Sunday--this couple. One Sunday, they didn't show up. So the preacher wondered what happened. They were such a ded--they were so faithful! So he--next day he happened to see her husband, and said, "John," he says, "What happened? You and Martha used to come to every Sunday, and this time you didn't come." He said, "What happened?" He said, "I'll tell you, Reverend: Martha didn't feel good. She did--she was kinda sick, [I thought]. And I did not want to leave her by herself, so I went fishing." See. So he couldn't go the synagogue because she was sick, but he went fishing--see. That's what I say about the holiday--holy day--they call it "holiday"; it's not. The reason--only--the only holy days, so far as I can see--even the Christians when they--when I was back in Europe--Christmas, my gosh! They used to have a parade with--uh, Jesus--and--and the whole town knew about it. And they used to sing those carols, you know--and all that. The same at Easter. But here Thanksgiving is a holiday. But I--I don't consider it a holiday. You wanta observe it, you're welcome; it's nothing--there's nothing connected with religion. And that's the thing about the Jewish religion. Well, of course, some people make a big deal over--Channukah than--Purim- than they would over Rosh Hashanah, but it's not a--it's not a fact; it has nothing to do with it.

IL:Comes close to Christmas.

JH:Mm hmm. And they wanted to--

IL:Channukah bay--Channukah tree: there's no such a thing. See. Particularly in Europe. I don't care what they--even in the United States, I mean, among the Orthodox Jews, you know; they celebrate Channukah--very--very much so. But, I mean, you could work on those days. There's nothing--you can work; [you see], these days, you work. Don't--see--but a regular religious holiday, like Rosh Hashanah, Yom

Kippur--you--it's very much against working. My father--even here in Springfield--used to close two days, on Rosh Hashanah and [Yom] Kippur; he never had his store open on those holidays. And our customers knew so well--they used to wait for him until after your holidays to go back to--to go do the business with him. Many of 'em did. A lot of stores-- back in those days, when I first came here- there were a lot of stores in Springfield that used to close on the Jewish holidays. I'm tellin' you, it's a fact. Rubenstein's, Levy-Wolf, Netter's--Freeman. Many o' those I can call--Arbeitman's- Lebovitz--oh--Lieberma--[Lieberstein's]: they all closed on the holidays. Here in Springfield! And, of course, now there are nobody -now they don't. The young generation--they're not even there, you know. Sometimes they go to Florida, and the business is here, you see. But--Channukah, there was a lot of--we [did business; if it was] a holiday, no.

IL:Oh, never went to school on Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur: no.

JH:And did the teachers have any difficulty with that?

IL:No--never had any problem. Even--even on [unintelligible] or on Passover we never went to school. We never did on those two days. The first and second day of Passover. And the last day. But we never--oh, I never had any problem in school--never. But they knew -some of the teachers--they knew exactly what's--what's goin' on. And those who wanted to go can go, because [you know] you can't stop them. The question why did they get that you didn't? Because they don't believe in the same as a--. How many--how many children go to Sunday school in the morning? Just take a look and see how many chi--. You don't know--if every person in Springfield--a Christian--in Springfield--regardless of Catholic, Protestant, or whatever he is--if they would go to school--to churches every Sunday, you wouldn't have enough churches! And they're lucky if they fill half o' their churches on Sundays. Well, it's the same thing with the Jewish people--Jewish organization--Jewish people. Some of them observe it and some don't.

JH:When you were growing up, did your parents emphasize education?

IL:Did they what?

JH:Did they emphasize education?

IL:Absolutely--there's no question about it. That's the first thing in the world. You see, I'm personally without [unintelligible]--I started to go to Hebrew school when I was four years old. That's when we started Hebrew school: at four years old.

JH:That's very young.

IL:And we kept growin' up and growin' up and all [that], till I was twelve--when I left Russia. And I've kept up--I still keep up--I still got a bunch of Hebrew books at home I read all the time. And Yiddish--Jewish books. I got some Hebrew--Jewish books--Hebrew books and all that. Sure, I got 'em at home. But that's the main thing in the Jewish religion is--is education. That's the Number One. They used to say, you could have to pawn you got, but send your kids to school to be educated; it's got priority. Even--no matter how poor you are. But you send 'em to the Hebrew teachers in Europe--if you can't afford to pay, you don't pay. If I was in the school--public school in Russia--we didn't have a public school. And that's why we didn't go to Russia--to study Russian--because we couldn't go because we had to pay and we couldn't afford to pay private teachers--tutors. But we didn't have a--

JH:Did you speak both the--

IL:We spoke Yiddish.

JH:Did you speak Yiddish?

IL:Yiddish mostly. We knew some Russian, after--my father

had--he learned [unintelligible]--to speak in Russian.

IL:In trade you learn, you know. A lot o' things you still remember. But goin' to school--you could not go to school, because they had no school to go to.

JH:Did people continue to speak Yiddish when they got here?

IL:Among us? Yes.

JH:In Springfield. Among yourselves.

IL:Among us, we always spoke Yiddish. But we learned--we went to school, started learning English--of course, we spoke English. But among the family we--mother and father--and we always spoke Yiddish among ourselves. See.

JH:Was it difficult to learn--? Twelve's a little old to--be plunged in.

IL:I didn't have too much trouble for some reason or another. I don't know--I couldn't explain how I learned. But you see, I kept goin' to school, and I kept playing with kids--baseball and football; I went to the YMCA, and start--mingling with the people; and that's the way I learned. Of course, at first it was difficult, because--the pronunciation. But--going to school--and, see, when I started school, I started in the first grade. In fact, we started actually at old Bailey school which is closed now; it used to be on Central Street. On Center--many years; it is closed now. That's where I usually started, 'cause I lived in that part o' town. But when we moved to State Street, I went to the Campbell School. See.

JH:So you lived on the north side to begin with?

IL:To begin with we lived on Boonville Street, because we didn't have no big hou--we needed a house. But Boonville Street we went to Bailey School, and started--[at Bailey] about a month.

JH:So did you live over the shoe business?

IL:Right behind the store.

JH:Behind the store.

IL:Yes, until we bought the house; because--see, my father couldn't buy a house because he didn't know--didn't want to buy one without my mother being here. So, as soon as we got here--we came, in September the 13th--we bought a house and moved in by the first of October. The house on State Street. We had a ten room house on State--ten or twelve rooms--big house: two story house. And close to Campbell School. And that's where we started, you see. But, you see, in mathematics--I didn't worry about it, 'cause I

knew--way before that I came to school--'cause we had to [unintelligible] study it in Europe. You see, when we started Hebrew in Europe, we studied mathematics, too--same time: addition, subtraction, multiplication--division. Of course, I didn't have the geog--geo--what do they call it?

IL:Not geometry--

JH:Algebra?

IL:Algebra. See. But that I started to study here. But as far as addition, subtraction--I'm not bragging, but I was ahead o' the class, because I knew it already. We had to go to the board to put up the addition, subtraction, and division--I knew exactly the way it was- how to get it.

JH:But you were put in with younger kids? Or--you said they put you in first grade?

IL:First grade. But I kept jumping. In other words, I started first grade in nineteen hundred and twenty-one, and when they opened Jarrett Junior High School in 1923 and '24, I was in seventh grade--Jarrett on Jefferson Street. They had seventh, eighth, and ninth; then I went to high school. See. And--but my oldest brother, of course, he graduated from high school and he went to Drury College here. He went to Drury; he had a--scholarship. When he got outta Drury, he got a scholarship to a university in Worcester, Massachusetts. What's the name o' the university there? Clarks--Clarks University -in Worcester. You heard of Clarks University? Worcester, Massachusetts. He got a scholarship there. So that's where he got his--Master's degree--in--accounting, public [policy]--. He got a major in political science and labor problems. So when he got out of school, he went and took a--test--a government job test--and he got a job in the Labor Department. He worked in Washington for--thirty five years. My older brother. 'Cause I stayed here with my Dad, and -

JH:Was he the only one who went to college?

IL:That's the only one that went to college. See, in those days. 'Cause we just--things was pretty tough, you know. But Dad--our Dad was kinda getting older; he wasn't very well--he wasn't very healthy. So when I--after--by 1930--'27, '28--I just had--dropped outta school and went to work with him--to help him out, until the war broke out. Now, when the war broke out, I enlisted in the army, in 1942--in February of '42. I was gone--I was in the army forty--almost four years. That's how come I met my wife. In--France. But, see, I was never stationed in France, but what happened is--. I was overseas- I left in February--in March, 1943, for overseas, and I came home in November, 1945. I was actually about forty months overseas. So--I was in North Africa, and from there I went to Corsica and Italy--and we went to France, and on to Germany. But when I got to Germany, then right after I got there, I got a--in Bavaria--[unintelligible], the war ended. When the war ended, I was there; and my brother Hyman, he was in Nancy, France. He was in France at that time. Well, he was the one that met the family. But then I moved back to Mannheim, Germany. And Mannheim, Germany, was a hundred and forty miles from France--from Nancy. So I went to see Hyman, and that's how come I met my wife--see. We met there; see, I went there a couple times, while I was in Germany. But--

JH:When you say you moved--you were moved? You were still in the army? Or--?

IL:I was still in the army, yeah. Oh, yeah; I didn't get outta the army till I came back home. But, you see, my Dad--that's the reason I stayed with him. You see, my Dad died it was 1949. Well, of course, when I came back, I--after he was sick, he die--. He--I--see, at that time, when I left, he wrote me a letter what to do. So I told him, "Look"--he didn't know how to--'cause--when they had the new rules and regulations as far as business--you couldn't buy this, you couldn't buy that. And you had to make out all kinda papers. So I told him, "Look, whatever you got, sell out." See, I had a shoe store- beside the shoe repair shop that my father had. I said, "You go back to shoe repair. Just forget it and sell out what you got. When I get back home, I'll see what we can do. Maybe we can go back in the shoe business." So that's what he did. He just sold off everything he had and just didn't buy anymore, and--stayed with the shoe repair business--which was busy at that time. So when I got back, you know, I had no problems. I got the shoe department at Rubenstein's -that's where I had a shoe business. And I stayed with Rubens--with Schwab's Clothing Store--I was with them for ten years. Then I went to Rubenstein's for twenty-five years. Until they went out of business. They were nice people. But otherwise, it's--it wasn't difficult; it just--you have to get adjusted to life. You just go along with it. Don't fight it, because if you do, you'll never win.

JH:Well, when your father arrived, were there other peo--there were other people coming in to Springfield who were in the same boat? I mean, were there--

IL:Not in the same boat.

JH:No, I mean in the same situation: other people--other Jews that he could connect with and--

IL:They came after [he did]. Now, whether they came first to New York or not--some of them came to New York first, then came down here. Like I tol--the Arbeitmans--they all tried to chute them in different places. Oh, yes, there were other people came after he did.

JH:But, I mean, he had--he wasn't totally on his own when he got here.

IL:Oh, yeah.

JH:I mean, he was on his own, I know, because the rest of the family didn't come--

IL:There was nobody here from--. [JH: But what about other people?] No--all by himself.

JH:Yes, but what about when he got here? Did he have--was there some kind of network that he could fit into?

IL:No, no. He got the--. They got him a job at a shoe--a fellow who had a shoe store and a shoe repair shop. After he came here, he went direct to him to work for him. He worked for him about four months.

JH:And was that a Jewish-owned--?

IL:No. Oh, yeah--a Jewish fellow owned it, yeah. A fellow named Bookman; he owned it. And he stayed with him about four months or five months--som'p'n like that. And then there used to be a wholesale shoe--leather--house here, [and] they got acquainted. And they're the ones that got my father to go for himself. He liked Springfield very well-- so much that he stayed here. And opened a little shop of his own, and he did well. You know. Until we came; of course, I helped him out. And we never had any problems. Never did. And that's why I stayed in Springfield, because I like this town. And, you know, we're getting a lot of people coming here now--from the east and from the west. You'd be surprised how many people come here, but--. And the reason--I just met some Friday night who came from Los Angeles--they moved into Springfield. 'Cause they just couldn't take it anymore--what's goin' on up there--and the living expense is so high it's unbelievable. People don't know how reasonable the living expense is here until they go to a big city, and then you'll see how much it cost.

JH:You mentioned that when you were growing up you went to the Y. Were--

IL:Yeah, the Y--downtown on Jefferson Street. I belonged to the Y; I joined 'em. Yeah, I was a member of the Y; went swimming there. And exercise and playing and--sure, my brother and I, both of us belonged to the Y. For a long time.

JH:What other organizations or groups did you--?

IL:Well, after I got settled, you know, some o' the members had like, for example, that fellow--it used to P.J. Walker--and he lived right across the street from us, and he got me to join the Knights of Pythians. I belonged to that. And, of course, after I came back from the army, I got in the American Legion. But other--as far as social groups is concerned--I never was interested in that.

JH:That was before, obviously, the congregations united. Were there any social activities within the Orthodox community that--?

IL:Oh yeah. Oh, yes, definitely. [When we] got together, the social [security] was there was for everybody. There was no--no distinction whatsoever. After--. You see, before--before that--if social activities happened in the Reform, they had nothing to do with the Orthodox. And if we had one in the Orthodox, it [had] nothin' to do with the Reform, unless they wanted to--could come by themselves. Once we got together, all the functions that goes in the temple--or the hall, you know--every member is entitled to come to it whether they got an invitation or not. Because it's not private. It's in the temple; the temple is open for everybody that comes in. If you got a wedding in a temple, you cannot say, "You can't go in"; because that's a temple--you got a right to go there. But we never had any problem or complaint, [that's what I tell you], we never any problem. Ever since we got together, we actually never did have any problems. In fact, it's getting--in fact, it's better now than when it was originally started. Because we don't distinction--have any distinction whatsoever between the Reform and Orthodox: there's no such thing anymore. We don't think that way anymore. If somebody does it, that's his private affair. But there's nobody left to think that way, really--among the others. See.

JH:Well, what was it like having--I mean, you'd spent your childhood in Russia in a place where there were a lot of Jewish families in a small area. What was it like being here--in such a non-Jewish community?

IL:Well, it's a different--absolutely, there's a difference there; because you're more--you see, all the Jewish people there; [it's] very few non-Jews. So, of course, everything under the Jewish [tradition]--butcher shops and everything else; so you're--you're in contact with them all the time. And then, here, of course, it's a different situation. You're really more individual here than anything else. You don't have the contact you have there. Even among the Jewish people themselves, unless they go to the synagogue. But otherwise you have private--you got your friends, you know- private--you go to, like--you play bridge or som'p'n like that, you see. You got your friends, yes. But it wasn't like over there; over there it was a different situation. The--all the members--the gathering was in the synagogue. And, of course, they had a--there was higher-ups, you know: the richer people had their own place to sit, and the other people had the other places. But they all--. But the doors were open at the synagogue. They never closed. And anybody that wants to go in and--learn or teach or read--it's still always there. That's a difference it in, you see--just a--that's a difference. Of course,

in--but in a large city here nowadays--in New York or som'p'n like that--some are in--the same way, you know--they go to the yeshivas, you know, where they go to study.

IL:Oh, sure, sure--because they had village of Jews come there for--. You'll find--on Friday and Saturday morning--you'll find that probably at least ninety percent of the people are there. Unless somebody's sick or som'p'n like that. All day. Saturday morning, the afternoon, and the evening. Like the same thing with--Chanukkah or Purim, like they have [unintelligible]--it's a place--a gathering place.

JH:Was it more difficult for your parents to adjust to the difference?

IL:Ah, they adjusted, I'd say. I'll tell you--the old one--the saying, "Necessity is the--

JH:Mother of invention?

IL:--mother of invention." If you have to have it--you--to adjust to something, you adjust to something. When we first came here, of course, Mother always baked our own bread--for Friday. But we had a neighbor on one side and a neighbor on the other side. Well, you start--little by little, she--they learned how to speak to each other. So my mother taught them how to bake challah. And they taught mother how to make pie. 'Cause we never had pie there; we didn't know what pie was even. But that's the way you learn. There's no- it don't mean you have to have a--I mean, a close--real close association--society; but if you got neighbors, you can always get [along]--. No, we never had--we never had trouble with a neighbor- never had any trouble with 'em. On either side. In fact, when we went to the service--. We bought a brand new Chevrolet in 1941--in September, 1941. And you know what happened in December of '41: that's--Pearl Harbor. When I left in February, 1942--first of February--my brother Hyman, he didn't go in until June, 1942--we had a brand new car. And my father didn't want to sell it--the car. If he wanted to he coulda sold it in one day--those days, you know. 'Cause he said, "No, that's the boys' car and I'm not gonna sell it." So we had a fella next--lived right next to us--and he worked for Chevrolet Company here. So he told him, "Mr. Lotven," he says, "You tell the boys not to sell the car; because when they get back, they won't find a car." So they went to the garage, they jacked up the car, and they put blocks underneath. And it stayed here until I got home in 1945. All these years. [And I got off it o' that--] as soon as I got [to] the garage--I took it off, it was a brand new car! Didn't have nothing on it, because we bought it in November. So that's what- they had--they watched it. And here what he did--the fellow next door, who worked for the Chevrolet Company: he used to go, you know, about once--a week--and start the motor. See. Open the garage and start it, because it wasn't at that garage--it was a private--separate garage. That's how took care of it to make sure the car's in good shape. 'Cause he happened to be--we bought it from Chevrolet Company, and he was--worked for them, see. Well, he took care of it very well. But that--we never, never had a bit of trouble -as far as social life or anything like that is concerned.

JH:When you were growing up--both in Russia and over here--were there distinctions between what men women did, or should or should not do? Things like that? Were there some things that--?

IL:Well, of course, the difference was there--[that's true of] there--if you went to services, or if you go--in Russia--the women and men does not sit together. It is entirely separate; they got a balcony. As far as that's concerned. But it's a different life. Of course, we were glad to get outta there. To tell you the truth about it, we were so glad to get outta there, we didn't care where we go! And like I said -just the foresight of my father--to see that we got outta there, and--when he left. Because if he

wouldn't--we wouldn't--probably wouldn'ta been here today. 'Cause my father's little town is not there anymore. I saw an article in the paper--I get the New York paper--they wanted a fellow from--an Israeli--[to get to the parents]--not to the--not the other--another fella--he was the one that was--governor. And he went back to Germany for some reason--it was a political reason. And from there, he went back to the little home town where he came from--in Russia--which wasn't very from where I came from. So it happened I saw the paper, you know. He was about--I would say approximately fifty, sixty miles from the little town I came from. And that town had about twelve hundred Jewish population--about twelve hundred people there--and a synagogue and everything else. He went there to see what the town looks like. 'Cause he came--he was born and raised there. There wasn't one Jewish person left in that town. So he started asking people what--what happened. They took the Jewish population, they took--put 'em in the synagogue, and burned the synagogue and the population. That happened all over. See, we left relatives there. I left my mother's sister living--we left 'em in Poland; her husband; her five children. We left my mother's half sister in the little town where I came from--the husband and four children. My father had two sisters in Minsk--Russia. Had children. We never heard a word. Never happened. When I was in

Germany--in Mannheim--I used to go to the Displaced Person [Hall]- you know, you heard o' the displaced persons; well, I worked with them. Because I could speak the language. And I used to go in there with them--before they sent 'em out--to help to them out. And I tried to check with them what happened to the people in the different towns. When I mentioned the town where my aunt and uncle--in Bialystok, Poland--they said, "Forget it; there's not a Jewish--left in the whole town." So people don't realize that what's would happen to us if I'd been there. I wouldn't have been here. People don't believe--they claim that maybe--some people like Pat Buchanan comes up to 'em and says it never happened. Well, o' course, he--he has no relatives there. He doesn't know! If it's not close to home, you don't know. But I'd like to ask him a question: how far back can he go in the Irish--well, now, he's a--his ancestors are Irish who came to America. Why did they come to America- from Ireland. There was a reason why the Irish come to America: the potato famine.

IL:Huh.

JH:It depends on when his--

IL:A long time. I--I--that's what I say: people don't realize that. Because--you know, when he went up to--Jese, it made me so mad when I heard him talk at the Republican convention. When he goes there and says, "We're gonna take our country back." Ask him if- from whom. From whom are you gonna take it back from? I don't care which way you go; you'll find somebody way back came from somewhere.

JH:Unless you're an Indian.

IL:And for a reason.

JH:Yeah.

IL:Now, whether it was a Catholic, or a Protestant, or a Jew, or a non believer. So there--so you can't say that "I'm a real American." Everybody's a real American who comes and becomes an American citizen, observes the law, the rules and regulations: he's an American. But if you--if you actually--is a--a racist or a demagogue, you're not an American. Because that's against the Constitution. People don't realize that.

JH:You were saying that you got along very well with your neighbors. Did you feel any discrimination when you were here--growing up?

IL:No! As long as I have lived in Springfield--. Oh, I had some remarks, you know, way back in schooldays; but they didn't mean anything. You know, I'll tell you, I listened to a couple of painful remarks sometimes, but I never had any problems, 'cause I [heard] the people stand up for us: non-Jews--boys I ran around with. I'll tell you a little story about that. When we went to Campbell School, just after we got here--it must've been a year or so after we got here--my youngest brother, Hyman, had a friend there--very good friend of ours--. We got acquainted with the boys, you know; we played together. He came on--with a new bicycle that his parents bought him for Christmas. So he came on a new bicycle, and Hymie says to him, "Ben"--Ben McCoy. He said, "Ben"--he said--in fact, he's dead now--he died--a very nice guy; died a young man. He said, "Ben, could I ride your bicycle?" He said, "Sure, Hyman. Here, take it--go ride." Hyman, he was on the bicycle. And another fella ran up to Ben and says, "Big deal," he says, "How come you let the Jew ride the bicycle and don't let me ride the bicycle? The damn Jew!" he says. Well, I stood right there; when I heard him--that--I hit him. I hit him on the face. And I mean, I really hit him. He went around to the teacher. She called us up there. I told her what happened. And I took Ben McCoy--he went with me. He said, "Yes, exactly how it happened." So she didn't do nothing to me at all, but she told him- said, "You better learn to get along with people, because you're gonna meet a lot of 'em." See, you take--now take--you can take those Vietnamese that come to school and others that can't speak the language. So you have a lot of those things. So if you're broad minded enough--you really should correct 'em if they're say--if they mispronounce a word, rather than--condemn them. And I never had any trouble. Used to go and play baseball and play football with the kids--and everything else. And I had a--used to be in the bowling alley--I used to bowl--three nights a week. And I never had any problems.

JH:Were you aware of anything like vandalism or--

IL:No.

JH:--anything like that? No?

IL:It's the funniest thing about that--

JH:Or the Klan? Oh, go on.

IL:As far as my house is concerned and--back at State Street and here. And our synagogue--even in--. [Unintelligble.] Oh, we had some- here, when we first--they, uh--burned a cross in front o' the temple one time.

JH:The Klan?

IL:In here. You know, in front o' the temple. They put a cross there on the front yard, and that's when they'd be runnin' together--you have to re--that's back in the '30s, you know, when the Ku Klux Klan were sort of--

JH:Whose yard? What yard?

IL:Front--right in front of the temple, they burned a cross.

JH:The temple!

IL:Yeah! But--we didn't make a big deal over it. Some--some guys just put a cross there and light it, you know. But they had a Ku Klux Klan organization here. But the thing is that most of 'em--majority of 'em--didn't know what it was, even. And the reason I say that--we had a friend of ours who had a restaurant--the third door from my father. South. He came over to my Dad, and said--Israel, they called him--"Well, Israel, whyn't you go with me to a meeting tonight?" He said, "What kinda meeting are you going to?" "We're gonna have a meeting in a cave here of the Ku Klux Klan." So Father said, "You call--ask me to go the Ku Klux Klan? Don't you know that you're not s'posed to be--Jews aren't s'posed to be there?" He said, "What!" he says, "What have they got against the Jews?" He thought it was just an organization; he didn't even know what it is! Boy, when he found out! Oh, he dropped out right away; he wouldn't even think about it. No, we never actually had any problems here. Well, I mean--serious problems. In fact--when Mr. Karchmer--back during the Depression, they had those--they call it--Works--the Public Work Administration. And they worked on the creek that went through Phelps Grove Park, you know, where they got it--now, they got it all paved, you know, and everything else. That goes all the way through -down--all the way to the creek--and they go through on Kickapoo, right by--is it Kickapoo or Fremont? It was either--both streets. And Karchmer used to live right there, close by, where the people worked on the ditch--those people. When they used to come to work there, she used to make a big--coffee pot--that big--coffee pot, and make some sandwiches just to take it to them, so they had sandwiches and coffee. See. So all the [workers] was crazy about her [unintelligible]. But we--never had any trouble. But I'll tell you something: Nathan Karchmer was elected mayor of the town. So in a town like Springfield with only--. Everybody--somebody must have voted for him beside the Jews; 'cause they didn't have enough Jews even to elect a street cleaner, let alone mayor! Especially when he ran against a person who was chief of police!

JH:Hmm. I didn't realize that.

IL:See. So actually, now, we never had any problems; never did. But, you know, vandalism sometimes, you can't get away from it. Oh, we had--like, for example--we had a--some o' the kids, you know, shootin' beebee guns, hittin' your window. It's not because they're against you; this was just practice, you know. So we never had any o' the--[deep]--they 'ere not such serious problems.

Tape II, Side 1
IL:It's amazing how many people ran away--just to get out. But, you see--the difference is this. Those who left early were the lucky ones. When I was in Mannheim--when I used to go to the Displaced Person Hall, there--they had not--they had to entertain themselves. They build a platform--they had music, you know. And they played- brought America--United States, you know, they [brung] some instruments. And they used to perform and--to keep themselves occupied. Of course, actually, we had some working for us--for the government--American government. Like we had so much merchandise to send back to the States. And I was in charge of this. We used to bale it to send it back; and we had some of 'em working with us. So I used to go there, too. And they used to entertain themselves. Well, they'd come up and sing a song that says, "Where shall we go? Our town is burnt; our families are gone. Where shall we go?" Where will we--that's a fact: they had no place to go! See. At the same time, at that time, England wouldn't let 'em come into Israel--see. The United States had a--quota. Which you can see a reason for: they cannot let the--flock in, and what do you do with 'em? See. So they were--that's the question: where will they go? So those people who had some relatives in the United States--see- and got ahold of them--they had an easier time getting here. Because there was--they'd signed up for--they'd be responsible for them. But those who didn't--had no place to go. I just want to give you a little example. There used to be a friend of mine here. Poor woman; she's--in a rest home now. She was a refugee. From the Holocaust. Very good friend of ours. And I got a book from her- made--people from Canada and

her--other residents from that town that she came from in Poland- they wrote a book--in three languages--about the town. At one time there were seventy thousand Jewish people lived in the town. Today there isn't a one there--left. After the war was over--was about sixty families--sixty people--came back to that town. They had no place to go, but their homes was taken away by the Polish people; they wouldn't give 'em back to them. It was more than that: it was a hundred and sixty people there. I got the book at home; it was given to my daughter. But what they did, they started a pogrom against the Jewish people: they killed fifty-four of 'em and the rest of 'em left town. Now there is not one left there. In Poland, at that time- when I was in Poland--the population of Poland was--it had about three and half million Jews. All Poland today--all of it--there isn't over five thousand Jews left in the whole Poland. And those are- the youngest--the average age is sixty-seven. Two years ago is was sixty-seven; I don't know what it is now. So what--where--where could they go? We had no place to go. People don't realize that. And they say--well, there are some people say, "Well, maybe [it wasn't] that bad." It was plenty bad, I guarantee you; I saw it. So I know how bad it was. I feel sorry for the kids here in town--in Springfield--and everywhere else. They have to go to the Kitchen and all the places like that, you see. I know what it is, because I went through it, when I was a kid. I know what it means to go someplace else to get something to eat.

IL:Why, sure! We had--in Warsaw, Poland--when we first came to Warsaw--we had a Jewish organization put up a soup kitchen. 'Cause we had nothing. And the HIAS was the one that set up the soup kitchen when we first got to Warsaw. See. So I know what it means to be that--be poor. I know what it means to be poor; don't--believe me, I do. But, you know, when we left Russia--it sounds like a fairy tale, but it's the truth. We had that sled. And the man's son was underneath there in that false bottom. My sister and my two brothers--this one here and my other one that--was passed away- were in the sled--and the driver. My mother, myself, and my oldest brother held onto the sled--and walked all night--though snow--and ice--and water--this was in February, you know, when it's beginning to kinda thaw a little bit--until it's seven o'clock in the morning.

JH:You pulled it.

IL:See.

JH:You pulled it. You didn't have a--

IL:No, no--we had a horse pull it--

JH:You did have a horse.

IL:--we held on not to get lost. We walked. The horse pulled the sled, but held onto the sled, and walked all night long until we got to that town. We got soakin' wet up to here [points to waist]--and you think I caught a cold? No! It didn't hurt me a bit. Now if I go outside without a hat I catch a cold! But that time--and so--we walked all night long--just to get outta there. And we were lucky, because he wanted to get his son out. He was [tryin'] get his son away from Russia into Poland. This fella with the sled. Otherwise, God know what would happen; 'cause they wouldn't let you out. It's the same thing, even--before--last--once when the Jewish people tried to leave Russia to go to Israel--they wouldn't let 'em out. They don't wanta keep 'em; they won't let 'em out. What are you gonna do? So those poor people around here, I feel sorry for 'em; I know what it is. See, some people don't--never know what it means to be poor; but I can tell you, I know what it means to be poor. But, you know, we got a great Lord--a God who kept an eye on us. Protect us.

JH:What was the standard of living that--in general--most members of the Jewish community reached?

IL:In Europe? Here?

JH:No, no, here--reached? During the first half of the century, say?

IL:Do you mean the living condition or--standard o' living?

JH:Standard of living, yeah.

IL:Was mostly a--good standard. I wouldn't say that--exaggerate to be--terrific: the average person was--you know--middle class. I would say that. They weren't real rich and they weren't real poor. But it was more of a middle class--as far as--living. See. Now, of course, like I said--if somebody should happen to need something especially, others would help them. If it's--if it--had to be done [that]--. But we had--we--very seldom we had anything like that. Most people--people who moved down here were just a--made a nice living; they weren't--extravagant. And they weren't really poor. They worked hard.

JH:Did any of the families become better off?

IL:Oh, yes: a lotta people--a lotta families got better off than others -sure [did]. Oh, yes. But as far as changing their attitude, there was no change; they were just better off financially. But as far as socially is concerned, there was no--they didn't change. That I know. No, they had to--the effect's still the same way now, actually, as far as the social is concerned; and they didn't distinguish between one another. Money didn't play a--what I would call--a big deal, as far as social life is concerned. Between the Jews.

JH:Did it more in Russia? Was there more of a distinction?

IL:Oh, sure, it was different! They--sure--they're a different class. 'Cause there were no rich Jews in Russia to begin with. But otherwise, sure, there was a difference. Oh, yes; my God. The difference between a non-Jew and a Jew was as different as day and night over there. Absolutely. Even during the revolution--it's supposed to be all equal. No way. No way. If they need you bad enough--they're a friend of yours. But as long as they don't need you--it finishes. Oh, sure. Yeah, it was--it was not--no picnic. Even in the army--even in the Russian army--there was a difference between the Jews and non-Jews.

JH:Did your father suffer from that?

IL:Well, he didn't suffer too much from it, because he was--in a--more of a--quartermaster corps. Being a shoemaker, you know, they needed him. See. But otherwise--but he was--he got hurt in the army when he was there. Because, you know, they had to go on guard. And he was on guard one night, and they--they attacked him; and- they hit him right here with a saber, and he was crippled in the right hand, like this [bends hand down].

JH:Who hit him?

IL:They couldn't--in dark--at night--some of the others--whoever it was. Get drunk, you know--some of 'em--and you never know what they gonna do. I remember when I was a

kid--woulda been 19--right after the revolution--1918--we had a bunch of calvary men come through--cossacks?--through our little town. Of course, there was a bunch o' horses; we went to see what's goin' on. One of them just--I was standing there--and he just took his whip and hit me right across here [indicates right side of his face]. My eye swelled up like this [places hand an inch above right eye]. For no reason in the world! My mother took us to put some cold--compress, you know--cold water, on it, you know, to--we didn't--don't have any ice over there in the summertime, you know; you don't have any ice over there. It was just with cold water, but- . It came all right, but it--my eye was just like--big. For no reason in the world! They don't like you, they--hit you. Oh, no, the life over there-- listen: I was tickled to death to get outta there. Yeah; tickled to death to get out.

IL:That was a problem. It got so bad--that four boys--we had to go eat at a different home--had one meal a day. 'Cause we didn't have it. In fact, sometimes, we used to get--people used to give us a little bit of buttermilk--and we used to go out to the field--where they harvested potatoes. And the way they harvest their potatoes is they turn it up--you know, with a plow and all--turn it up. And they gathered all the potatoes; then, whatever they didn't get, they let us go out there and dig--and see if we could find some. And all the four boys used to go out there--my--Hymie was only a kid, you know. He was only about six years old--five years--you know. We used to go out there and get--pick up as much as we can--potatoes--for free. At the same time, when they harvest rye--you know, when they pack and put stuff--stack 'em up--you know, and a sheave, you know, fall on the ground? We used to pick it up; take it home; take sticks and- and thresh it; and take it to the mill and grind so we could have a little bread. And then, when the soldiers used to come through, we- Mother used to have to bake bread for them. See, we had oven--you know, big ovens. So what she did--she used to get a loaf of bread for that. She bought flour and she bread it, and they took it--but they gave you a loaf of bread. But it was no easy job, I grant you; we went hungry--we went hungry many times. And it's--clothing--we used to get clothing from--people used to give us--who cares what size it is as long as it's something to cover our feet. Oh, we had--it wasn't--it wasn't pleasant, I grant you. [Tape recorder off at beginning of phone call. Mr. Lotven begins to talk about children and grandchildren.] --One has three kids, a boy and two girl--a girl and two boys. And they live in Lancaster, Pennsylvania; that's the one married a rabbi. See. But they went to Parkview, sure they did. I used to go there--be there--with three kids in Parkview all the time, I used to go there--I had to go there. They went to Delaware School first. That's where they went--to Delaware. That's the reason I built the house here in 1951--after I got married. 'Cause I knew there was gonna be a school here. I lived next door--next block--on Kentwood. See. So I built that house, and--I moved in July, 1951.

JH:Well, did you come back after the war and then your fiancée followed you?

IL:Well, no; I just--look, what happened is this, incidental--. She wasn't my fiancée. See, my brother, Hyman, he got married in France--to his wife, see. And so she came here in 1946: Regina- Hymie's wife--she came in 1946. And her brother came then--. In 1949--in December, 1949--December the second--my father died. So, of course--see, we buried him in St. Louis. The reason we buried him in St. Louis was because he had a--grave lot for him and my mother in St. Louis; way back, long time ago, he got that. That was before they had all the Jewish--like they have here now, they didn't have it those days; no. So--we went to the funeral, of course. When we got back from the funeral--in December--she got a letter from a girlfriend--from Nancy--saying, we're sorry to hear that your father died. She didn't even know. See, it was--in July, I think it was- July or August, 1950, her brother came. Then we got papers made, and her mother and her sister came. And when they came--they came--in fact, they came to Springfield Thanksgiving Day, 1950. See, I met her several times when I was overseas--and went there- see. But when she came here--and after being here--she finally decided we wanted--we got married in February, 1951. See. She liked Springfield; her sister lived here, and--. We closer acquainted, of course, you know. And I wasn't--I never thought I was getting married, because I really didn't care one way or the other. But she made--I'm glad--she just was--she was a wonderful person; and we never had any problems. Been married now--it's gonna be--in February--it's gonna be forty-two years. So--we never--so that's, see, two brothers married sisters, so there was no problem there. See. Now, her brother went to Canada. He graduated from SMS. And he went to Canada. And he's teaching there in Canada. He comes here every so often--not very often, but it's--quite a ways. But that's how come we--brothers married sisters. Now if her father would still have been alive, we would probably--it would never have happened; but, you know, those thing happens [sic]. See, when her father died, there was nobody left there. So, she told her, we said, "What are you gonna do there by yourself?" See, so--they came, and -everything worked out fine. Listen: you know, you can plan your- make plans ahead of time--but that doesn't mean it's gonna work out that way. I don't care what it is. You know. We can plan, and we can see, we can do; but--who knows what's gonna happen? Nobody knows what's gonna happen tomorrow. See. I does not go very far--here- it was in [unintelligible] either March or April--I think March, it was--my brother who was a year younger than I was--they--he lived in Tulsa for fifty years. When his wife died, he came Springfield. And he rented an apartment--'cause he retired, you know. And he worked--[unintelligible] for--makin' out schedules for the American Legion baseball, and so on and so forth. But he used to come to see me every day; we used to get together for a cup o' coffee--. But he lived in an apartment. And I had his keys to my apartment. So one day--it was a Friday--and every Friday night he came to my house for supper; there was no question: that's the way it--and Saturdays -always was. And he used to come in the afternoon sometimes to talk me. So my oldest brother called me and said, "Did you hear from Morris?" I said, "No, I haven't seen him today." He said, "You know, I been trying to call him and nobody answers." His apartment. So I said to him, "Well, Jake," I said, "He might be out someplace playin' bingo"; he liked to play bingo. "But I'll tell you I'm gonna do: I'm gonna go to the apartment and see what's goin' on." I went to his apartment--about three o'clock in the afternoon--and noticed his car was parked there. I said, "Oh, something is wrong, because if his car is there, he didn't go anywhere." I ring the bell, I ring the bell, and nobody answers. I got the key, opened the door, and there he was in the bed, sound asleep--dead; he died in his sleep. And just the day before we were together! So how can you figure it, I say? Can you figure things out? So I don't--I don't worry anymore. So it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen. People are worried about it. I'm not. You know--I'm not complaining--don't misunderstand me, I'm not complaining against anybody--'cause I know what it is to be poor. But when I read in the paper sometimes, about those poor people, what they

request--to bring 'em--I said to myself, "Is this being poor?" This one wants a doll and this one wants a bicycle. This one wants a tv; this one wants games to play on the--tv games. "By God!" I said, "I was lucky to get som'p'n to eat!" And somebody gave me an old pair o' shoes to put on, so I had to put rags on my feet to put these shoes on that are miles too big for me; but I had something on my feet! But whoever thought of a plaything like that? Never heard of it. But here's it's diff--it's something that--they get it, too, they get it. And I don't blame--if they can afford to--give it--it's perfectly all right. But to me it sounds funny, if people say they're poor. That's- that's being poor? That's not being poor. Of my standard. See. And I see in the paper--a woman is--needs this, she needs that; and she's trying to--to break away from the habit of--dope. My God! In her life, how could anybody--anybody--take money that's supposed to buy food and buy this with it? It's a sickness.

IL:It's a sickness.

JH:--you have no--you feel you have no control over that, I guess.

IL:No control over themselves. I feel sorry for those people. But, no matter how much you help 'em, they're gonna--they're not gonna--get away with just--I don't just know what you can do with people like that. You see, they never have enough. No, it's--it's--it's a funny world. I don't know; I couldn't understand it.

JH:How much did the Depression affect--?

IL:How many what?

JH:How much did the Great Depression affect the Jews who had settled here? The emigrants?

IL:How much--?

JH:The Depression in the '30s? How did that affect--?

IL:Oh--the Depression? In the '30s, yeah.

JH:Yeah. How did that affect--?

IL:Oh--that--actually it didn't affect us very much. And I'll tell you the reason why it didn't affect us very much. Because we had the business, you know. And business still was--going. Of course, everything was very cheap that time, but--your food was cheap; the living condition was feasible. And on top o' that, we had a big garden. And we used to have enough potatoes and onions to last us year around. 'Cause we had a--the place we lived, we had a--the yard was a hundred and ninety feet--deep. And eighty-five feet wide. And it's--there on State Street, you notice, these houses are closer to the street. So we had--all the back yard we had for a garden. And we worked; everybody worked. 'Course, like I said, what we couldn't afford to buy, we didn't. But actually, as far as--food or anything like that, we never had any problem. Never had it. It was- because we still had a business, and there were still people here, because--like I said--. My brother and I had a shoeshine parlour- shoeshine chairs--two of 'em. We'd shine shoes--ten cents a shine. Today they usually charge a dollar and a half, two dollars, see. So on a Sunday morning, when people used to go to the ballpark--they used to walk, a lot of 'em, to the old White City Ballpark. There used to be a baseball park here. Never heard about the baseball park we used to have here?

JH:Oh, yeah!

IL:You know where the Gospel Publishing House is? On Boonville Street. That used to be White City Ballpark. And we had a baseball team in those days.

JH:The congregation did?

IL:No, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, professional.

JH:Professional?

IL:Professional baseball--

JH:Minor league?

IL:Minor league--yes. Except, later on--in 1928 or '29, it was--St. Louis Cardinals took it over. We had our bigshots here: there was Stan Musiel, you know--there was Mike

Ryba--and all those bigshots. So my brother and I, on Sunday morning, when they used to go over to the ballpark--they used to--a lot o' the people walked. We had the

shine--polish--shine stand on the sidewalk. People'd get shines: ten cents a shine. And we made money that way. And we saved money. See. So that's the way--how we got along; we just--made enough to take care of what we need. We never were actually what I would say--after we came to the United States--we weren't rich- but we always had food. Because we were--we watched what we were doing. Whoever heard of going to a restaurant when I was a young man? I never even thought about it! Go in a restaurant--what for? We got food at home. I don't think I ever went to a restaurant until I got a--. Gosh, that'd be--I was--the first time I went to a restaurant was--I bet you I was thirty years old. Went for a cup o' coffee in a restaurant. Otherwise I never went to a restaurant. But we did--we made a living here; we got along pretty well. And most of the Jewish people here in town had no trouble--had no problem.

IL:No. No.

JH:This is an interesting question. Are there any stories about the earliest Jews in Springfield that you know are incorrect? [Shows questionnaire to Mr. Lotven.] This is the question right here: are there any stories about the earliest Jews in Springfield that you know are incorrect? That's the question: it starts right there. That's one of Marc's [Cooper], and I don't know if he had anything particular in mind there, but--.

IL:Well, no, I don't know of any stories that are incorrect. No, the Jews in Springfield, as long as I remember, always had a good reputation. And I'll tell you the reason why. If there was any Jewish feller- person--that came to Springfield who we know--find out that something is wrong--he didn't stay here very long. We saw to it.

JH:How?

IL:Because--we just got him outta here. We just said he doesn't belong here--one o' the Jewish organizations. We don't this reputation to be spoiled, because Jewish people here had a very good reputation. See. And we had--the one time--at one time--that a fella came here--and he wrote some checks. They bounced. Well--we took care of it. And he left town. But we just very seldom had that, though. It was very rare. Because as far as I know from--the business people those days in Springfield had a very good reputation: of sincere and honesty. Even today--if you happen to be around Greenfield, Missouri--you'd be amazed how much people think of Rubenstein's- even for--way back--in Greenfield. Even today.

HL:Oh! Are you talkin' about when he died? They closed the town up for two days.

IL:They closed the town.

HL:When the old man, Joe, died--

IL:Joe Rubenstein--the man who started Rubenstein's in 1893--when he died, Greenfield stores closed their doors. And they came down--

JH:Is that where he was from? I thought he was from Springfield.

IL:He's buried here in Springfield. But he died in Greenfield.
HL:He was in Greenfield all his life.

IL:But, see, his sons were here--his two boys were here. But he lived in Greenfield.

JH:Because I remember the store in town.

IL:Rubenstein's, here in Springfield; that was his boys--two sons.

JH:Oh, I see.

HL:He founded the cemetery here. [IL: And he's the one--] In eighteen ninety--

IL:'93.

HL:--three; yeah.

IL:The old man, Joe Rubenstein, that--Rubenstein's father here--you know--what's his name--? His two sons came to Springfield in 1924. See. And they were here in Springfield, and he was still at Rubenstein's in Greenfield.

JH:So did he start off in Greenfield?

HL:Yes!

IL:In Greenfield--in Greenfield.

HL:He came there as a peddler.

IL:And he traveled to Springfield as a peddler--from Greenfield.

HL:And then he just lived--he started there and started a little bitty store--you see.

IL:Well, you see, George Rubenstein--that was his grandfather--

HL:Yeah--oh yeah; George was his grandfather.

IL:Grandfather. And when he died, the town of Greenfield closed their stores to come here for his funeral. That's how much they thought of him.

HL:Two days they closed the--. Well, the town--they closed the town up. They had the funeral there in the gymnasium, because they didn't have a funeral home big enough to--to hold the people.

IL:Now, his daughter still lives in Greenfield.

HL:Yeah, I just heard from her.

IL:Ruth.

HL:I just heard from her.

IL:She's--she's in pretty bad shape.

HL:Yeah.

JH:His daughter--

IL:Rubenstein's daughter.

JH:Which Rubenstein? Joe or George?

HL:Joe. Joe's daughter.

JH:No, that's Joe that just died. The original owner--the original- that's George's aunt.

HL:The daughter's about eighty--

IL:George's father's sister.

HL:She's still living; she's about eight-four years old.

JH:Oh, okay, Joe is the grandfather?

IL:Joe is the grandfather. He's the one that started the business.

HL:In fact, if you'll trace the archives in Jefferson City, you'll find that Louis Barth's father--you know, Louis Barth's--father--was the first man--Jew--to cross the Mississippi into Missouri. I mean- yeah--Louis Barth's father. And this is recorded in Jefferson City.

JH:Barth of Springfield.

IL:And didn't he [sic] come to Springfield, though.

HL:Huh?

IL:He crossed--not to Springfield.

HL:He didn't come to Springfield, no; but I'm talkin' Missouri. I'm not talkin'--

IL:Mexico, Missouri.

HL:Mexico, Missouri; I'm not talkin' about Springfield.

JH:But he was the first to Missouri.

HL:Yeah. Now, his sons came to Springfield. See, his sons came to Springfield. Because--even when I got outta high school in '32--I worked for Bo Shoe Company. Well, you know where--you don't remember where Zales was--used to be on the square? Well, I was next door to him. Till I had to go in the army. [Phone rings.]

IL:No, the Jewish people around here never had any problems--really. Once in a while, we used to get--it'd come--then we got--we took care of it, and--everything was quietened down. Because, we--we just wouldn't put up with it, you know? There's things you can do that are right and there's things that are wrong, [you know, but--.] If a Jew got stuck, he got a little trouble, we went up there and--to his apartment--and we took care of--see what's the trouble and took care of it. We never let a lot of--because during the Depression we used to--did get some Jewish--uh--travelers through here--you know, broke, you know. We used to have some. So we had an organization. And we called it the [Jewish] Federation. And Nathan Karchmer was in charge of it; and we used to send them to him. Instead of goin' to different places to try to collect some money for him. And he used to take care of it. If he was in a car, you'd fill up the car--get gasoline in it, and send him out of town, or if he didn't have money, give him [twenty], and that's--that's how it was: we took care of it.

JH:Now, do you remember what year Karchmer was elected?

IL:It was 1952.

JH:'52.

IL:I think. I'm sure it was 1952; I'm positive. Because at that time- because I'll tell you what it is. He served two years, and the reason was--they changed the government in '54, from mayor to manager--a city manager form of government. They changed it while he was a mayor--see. So when they changed it--it was in '54; that's why I say he served from 1952 to 1954.

JH:Well, did he finish his term, as city manager or did he--

IL:No--no.

JH:That was it; just the two years.

IL:No, I think he just let 'em go ahead and get--hire a manager.

JH:What issues did he run--? What was his platform--or did he have one?

IL:Well, the platform was simple. He was running just to see--the platform was to see that Springfield gets everything it deserves for the money we're spending. You see, there was quite a bit of political influence during the mayor form o' government--dishonesty. So a fella like--the fella--mayor named Gideon, you know--and others, you know--who spent the money without knowing where it went to. That's why--that's the main reason why they changed the government to city manager. See. Not be--it isn't because they really got a good city manager; the first city manager was the biggest crook we ever had! You know. But that's why they changed it: because there was very much political influence, and it's supposed to be--it's supposed to be a non-political election. The mayor was not political. What they did is anybody who wants to file for mayor could do it. And they had a primary. And the two highest -top--is the ones that went--went up for election. See. So, they--I don't know how many--we had five or six--I think had six people running; and he and the chief of police--that time--I can't think of his name right now. [Unintelligible]--and, of course, you know, they had a--the police department was for the chief, of course; and- Nathan won.

JH:Was he widely known in Springfield?

IL:Oh, yes! Nathan? Yes, sir.

JH:I've forgotten what his--

IL:He was in the oil, gasoline--and oil and heating and air conditioning business. Now, his father was in the junk business: the Karchmer Iron and Metal Company. He started that. And when Nathan first started the business for himself--he started secondhand tires, you know, and things like that, until he worked himself up. And he had a good following--and a very honest business. You never had a- there's nobody had anything--if you bought something from him and you wasn't satisfied, he took care of it.

JH:So he had a reputation for honesty?

IL:Wonderful reputation for honesty. He even--he dealt at that time at the Union National Bank. And the Depression came, and Mr. Karchmer from the Iron and Metal Company came over to the bank. And he told 'em, he says, "You know," he says, "We don't sell much anymore- now," he says. So they told him, "Mr. Karchmer, "We'll give you all the money you want; you keep on buying. Because," they says, "one of these days your prices are gonna go up--. And we'll back you as much as you want the money." Never refused him. Well--after the Depres--before the war started, they started sending steel to Japan, you know. My father himself, see--my father went into the bank and borrowed money. All he'd do's just the sign the note, and that's it. He had nobody to sign for him. In fact, they told him in the bank. The bank--I lived--across the street from us--Main--the--Main- Nicholson, it was where the old Queen City Bank used to be. It's not here--not in business anymore; it's before your time. And he told him--he said--he was talkin' to my dad and he said, "Mr. Lotven, your signature--your son's signature--is just--to me--just as good as anybody else's in town." He says, "I know you, and so I know it's good." We had a good reputation: as far as reputation is concerned, the older Jews here in town, there isn't a one of 'em that had a bad reputation--that I know of.

JH:So the fact that he was Jewish didn't play any part in his being elected.

IL:Not a bit in the world.

JH:Did it have any effect on the congregation--the fact that he was elected? I mean, did--

IL:It had no effect on the congregation whatsoever. Our congregation was--always had a good--[tape recorder off when other conversation in room gets louder]. --Reputation of the Jewish people here in town, and you can [infer the figure] the Reform was organized in 1893--and they were here before then, even. See. And so the Jewish reputation in Springfield was very, very highly considered.

JH:Was he the only Jew to be elected to a high political office in Springfield?

IL:He what?

JH:Was he the only one to get into political office in Springfield?

IL:As far as I'm concerned, yes: he's the only one who had a political office. Nobody ever tried again. To be honest about it.

JH:How active, do you think, has the Jewish community been politically?

IL:Oh, privately they might have been, but not publicly.

JH:That's what I mean.

IL:Privately, even my own wife right now--she belongs to the Democratic Club. See. She goes there and helps them out. But running for office, no.

JH:Right. Has the community tended to be more liberal, more conservative--or--?

IL:What, the community itself? Well, I would say that it's half and half: half the people are Republican and the other half might be Democrats. But I would say at least half--about half and half. Now, the Karchmers--I know they're Republicans; there's no question in my mind about that. And some others I know. Then others are Democrats. I don't belong to neither one of 'em: me, I'm just an independent. But politically, there are very few who take, I mean, a big part. They might help out one way or the other, but none of 'em are really interested in taking any office or anything like that.

JH:You mentioned the first rabbi--Jacobs?

IL:Rabbi Jacob, yeah.

JH:Jacob.

IL:He came--he came here in--I wasn't here; but I was over in the army. I think he came in 1942. Now, he wasn't the first rabbi. The first one was a fella by the name of--Rabbi Richter came here.

JH:Rabbi--

IL:Richter--R-i-c-h--. He was here first; but he didn't stay here very long.

JH:No?

IL:But then, he left, and Rabbi Jacob came. [Talks to brother.] So, then, he came here--it was after Germany--they started in '41, that business. And Rabbi Jacob originally came and he went to St. Joe. But after being in St. Joe for a while, he came to Springfield. And he stayed here from 1942 until he retired in 1962, I believe it was. No, it's [early '60s]. He was--he was a really nice guy. He really had a lot to do with keeping the Jewish people together. Yes, very much so. He was a very educated man--very broad-minded.

JH:When you say, keeping them together--

IL:I mean as an organization, I mean. He was just as much for the Orthodox as he was for the Reform. To him there was

no--separation. In fact, during the summertime--when--. Those days, in the summer during the--June, July, and August--the Reform used to not have any services, on account of there was no air conditioning. So he used to come to our services on Friday night--to conduct services for us.

IL:He was supposed to be Reform. He was a Reform--he himself was not Reform. But--he was a religious man. But--being from Germany--he needed the job, so he conducted the Reform service for them. But when he went to conduct a service, he was dressed like a regular rabbi in the Orthodox synagogue. He wouldn't dare go there without a hat. Or a scar--or a praying shawl--nosiree! He said, you can sit wherever you want to. His home was strictly--Jewish kosher home. He wouldn't even answer the telephone on Saturday. That's the kinda rabbi he was. But he had no choice. He came here as a refugee from Germany; he needed the job; and people treated him nice, so he stayed here--until he retired.

JH:So he was actually--he got a salary as a rabbi?

IL:He was Orthodox rabbi in Germany.

JH:No, but I mean, he was able to make his living as a rabbi?

IL:Oh, yes! He did--a rabbi; and then his wife used to teach at Drury. But, you see, both parties--the Orthodox and Reform--both supported him. This rabbi. Because, you see, it was--this was what happened: in 1946--or '47, that's when we combined--as one organization. But we had different services.

JH:Do you think he had a lot to do with that? With the combination?

IL:He had a lot to do with it, yes--combining--see. But as far as the services were concerned, we still had separate services. 'Cause we had some on our side didn't go over to Reform service; we had the Reform who didn't want to go to Orthodox service. So we said, "Tell you what we'll do: we'll be one organization, and build a community center." In 1954, we built that. See. But before we built it we were both--combined. Said, "You keep your Orthodox where you're at, and we'll keep to the Reform. But as a grou--as an organization, we'll have a place where we can meet for weddings--other--for functions." This is a--what we call--a community center. It isn't Orthodox; [it isn't] Reform. That's why--you know the sign, the "Jewish Community Center"--it says that on the cornerstone. This was 1954. Because we don't need a side. But after we got that in there--see--and we had our services there in the syna--a little small synagogue--which was really nice--then, when the older people died off, a new generation starts coming in. And it got to be where they didn't have too much left over there on their side, and we didn't too much left on our side; so we just combined, and it worked out just fine. See.

JH:Have there been a lot of rabbis since the first one?

IL:We had--since the first--since Rabbi Jacob, when he left--we had Wucher was one--. Well, Wucher we can't say, because he was a--

JH:Student?

IL:--a student rabbi. And he came here for a short time. I know- because he went to--right out of school he went to the army. But we had full-time rabbis. We had Smith--he's one. And we had Kaplan: that's two. Zucker is three. Diamond's four. We've had about six rabbis since we organized together. See, what happened, they come down here--and sometimes after they get experience they go to a larger congregation. You see. But since Rabbi Jacob retired--which I think it was 1962, if I'm not mistaken--we had six different rabbis since then. See. Some of 'em, like Rabbi Smith--for example--when he left Springfield, he went to another congregation, then he quit; he went to work for the state--in West Virginia, I believe it was. Rabbi David Zucker, when he left Springfield, he went to a congregation in Colorado. But he was there just a short time; he got a job at a university there--so, see, it's--to teach. And see, the thing is this: you cannot have a contract as a rabbi with a congregation and still teach in a college. Here. I don't know about over there. But you could be a teacher--and give a service in the congregation as a member. See. So he's not a rabbi, actually, as far as that's concerned. But you can lead a service--see, you don't have to have a rabbi to give a service. But as long as you don't have a contract--that means you're not, you see. You're one of the members of the congregation that gives a service. But as far as full-time rab--now we got a--a lady for a rabbi; she's very nice. Have you met her?

JH:I've met her; yes, yes.

IL:Very nice person. She just came out of school. Now, what's gonna happen later on, after she gets all the experience, she might want to get a bigger place; I don't know. It's up to them. See, we don't have a place where they assign you places; no such a thing. The congregation wants a rabbi or needs a rabbi or wants a new rabbi, send it into a rabbinical organization in New York. You see; it's called Central Conference of American Rabbis. They send in it to for--if they want a rabbi--they give 'em to--side of the congregation. At the same time, a rabbi who's looking for a job also send in application there to tell 'em what they want, you see. What they're tryin' to do is--is match 'em up. Then the rabbi comes to see the congregation on a trial basis. Then they choose whoever they want. See, they don't have to--see, it's not like--some places--they send preachers, you have to take him. We don't have to take him. And we don't have to keep him; we sign a contract--a yearly contract--with him. Or two years--if he want two years, you can [sign him as long] as you want to. For example, when my son-in-law came to Lancaster--you see, when he got outta school, he didn't want to get a congregation. He wanted to get experience--[cut off].

Tape II, Side
IL:--and there, as an assistant, he got a lot of experience. But after about two years, the rabbi there in Worcester told him, he said, "David," he said, "you know enough to get yourself a congregation." He said, "You'll do all right." So when he applied, he found an opening in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. So he went there--there was two hundred and fifty members there. Now, he's been out there twelve years. So he applied and he wanted to get--he wanted to come closer to the midwest, because his parents live in St. Louis; and my daughter--we live here, you know--and she wanted to get closer. So there was an opening in a congregation in Chicago. So he applied for it. Well, they came out there for an interview, and--they came out there to spend a weekend in the congregation--to see the kind of services they give. Then they went up back to Chicago. They finally got--three of them they was thinking about--and then they decided to hire him. So now he has to move to Chicago. But they--they have a choice; they could take the job or they don't have to. See.

JH:Let's see--here's a question. When did the Reform Congregation join the Union of American Congregations?

JH:Why were the Hadassah and B'nai B'rith chapters founded?

IL:The Hadassah I couldn't tell you. Now, the B'nai B'